How To Feel Confident In Conversation With Cole Jennette

Ever feel like you don't have the right words? Not sure how to politely exit a conversation? 

Well you're in luck- in this episode, we welcome Cole Jennette, a communication coach with over 478k followers on Instagram, who’s helping people master social skills and feel more confident in tough conversations. 

We discuss how to turn awkward social moments into opportunities for connection and Cole shares his personal journey from struggling with leadership due to poor communication to becoming a coach that empowers people to unlock their conversational potential.

Episode Highlights

00:00 The Art of Connection and Curiosity
02:32 Cole's Journey To Creating Social Cues Content On Instagram
06:41 The Role of Experts vs. Coaches
10:23 Understanding Introversion and Extroversion
13:41 Practical Skills for Better Conversations
19:17 Empathy in Conversations
24:06 The Courage to Be Curious
26:58 How To Politely Exit Conversations
34:05 Finding Your Voice in Conversations
38:59 Reflections on Personal Growth

Follow Cole On IG: https://www.instagram.com/colejennette
Checkout Cole's Website: https://www.leadovert.com/

🏁 Connect With Us On Instagram!

• Not Nice Clever
• Candice Carcioppolo
• Kat Torre

📣 Amplify by Not Nice. Clever. is the ace up your sleeve. It's a hands on, workshop style delivery full of replicable frameworks, and actionable strategies that you team can put in place right away.

Find out more HERE.

🎙 Book Kat and Candice to speak at your next event, summit or workshop HERE

Transcript

People suck at questions. The invitation to connection always comes with the cost that somebody will reject it. How's he doing? Like, is that stressful? You're like, is this person about to listen to me right now?

I think I'm going to make them uncomfortable if it's not the question that they want to ask. So I will avoid it. The more rules we put up about how we connect with one another, the less we're going to connect. It's this cultural moment is tearing us apart because I can't be curious because I'm so scared that my curiosity will affect. This may be a dumb idea, but I just want to... It might be bad idea, but I just, I don't know. And they're like, my God, I immediately need to show them that I totally see them and I get them and I want to be empathetic. And then they like...

just the story spills out of them. get to play with how we engage in the world. Whether you use the word just or not isn't who you are as a human being. You are always, always wrong. You're just becoming less wrong by asking more questions. Man, you do that for somebody? You can change somebody's week.

Clever Crew, if you've ever felt awkward or unsure in conversations, today's episode is exactly what you need. We've got an incredible guest who's taken the cringe -worthy moments we all dread and turned them into a superpower for connection. Meet Cole Jannette. After navigating his own struggles with social cues and tough conversations, Cole hopped on Instagram, started sharing tips from his car, and the rest is history. Now with over 478 ,000 followers and millions of views, he's become a go -to coach for helping people feel confident.

relaxed and ready to connect. So without further ado, let's welcome the one and only Cole Jenette. Thank you Cole for joining us here today. We are super excited to have you not only because of our bias in preference of enhancing communication as the root of all understanding and connection and relationships, but honestly, just because you seem like an all around incredible person, just trying to do some good in the world. So we're excited to have you here. Thanks for having me. So getting started here, I think

One thing that's always like on the minds of our clever crew and if they look you up on social, they're gonna see that you're not at the beginning of your journey. You're very much farther along than most, but I'd love for you to just kind of share and take us back to when you were getting started online. What was the driving force? What was the inciting events, you know, in a good story? What did that look like? Years ago, I found that I was really competent, but my charisma or my ability to communicate...

was limiting my ability to grow into leadership roles. And so I remember specifically asking why I wasn't considered for a leadership opportunity. They kind of skirted around the answer and it ended up, I just didn't know when to shut up. And I was like, that stinks. It was funny, nobody told me to stop doing that. If I'd have known, I could have worked on it. And so I remember being, there were invisible rules that I didn't know. And because I didn't know those invisible rules, I like to say they're

are so many implicit rules with explicit consequences. Like that resonates, right? Things that nobody told you, but you are very much expected to know and stay in line with. And what makes it even sneakier is they're changing depending on the group of people you're with. Like that's maddening. So that's why my company is called Overt. We say we're in the business of overt operations. So just make it clear. Like, let me know what you expected me. So

Through that, I was fortunate enough to have a mentor to be able to get access to a 360 review, which if people aren't familiar, is where people above you, alongside of you, and below you, all review you. And I remember reading this thing where somebody said, Cole seems more concerned with what's happening in his head than me when I'm right in front of him. Like, and I didn't know that. That's an inflection point where you go, I get to choose whether I'm gonna justify or I'm gonna grow into this.

I mean, God, it would have felt good to be like, well, they're just jerks and idiots. And if they wanted to tell me, they could have told me and you know what, people can accept me as I am, or they can just not. Because listen, there's a lot of that out there. And it feels good. It feels good. But it's ruinous empathy, as the radical candor folks say. So I decided inflection point, I'm going to lean in and I spent, you know, a decade just trying to work on my emotional intelligence and my ability to communicate and connect with people, trying to open up really wide doors for feedback. And all of that yielded a lot of fruit.

I have three kids, I have three teens. We have this rule, they're not supposed to have their phones in their rooms. And she had snuck her phone in her room and she's scrolling. And I think she had scrolled late into the night, like one of those 1am, 2am binges. So we were having to talk about it and you know, doing all the parent things. And then it hit me, I was like, social media is access to people in an intimate way that we do not consider. The thing I tell people over and over when they ask about, we grew half a million in a year and a half. I think the reason is people think it's a one to many platform.

It is not, it is a one to one platform. Think about the places. I remember watching my daughter and she's scrolling. She's alone. She is in a place where I can't even get to her. If I knocked on the door, she'd be out of that moment. That's the moment we're speaking into people. And so I was like, man, maybe I can reach Cole at 21 and give him all the stuff that it's taken me 10, 15 years to get.

Maybe I can give it to him earlier and shrink his learning gap. I started doing stuff. I think at the time I started my Instagram, I was going to do dog training and social skills, but I ditched the dog training thing because I love animals, but I don't love animal people. They're mean, very mean and opinionated. Rather get into politics, frankly. Love that unpopular opinion. We love the spicy takes, So feel free. So yeah, that's how I got started. And then it just kind of ran away on me. I'm in a really beautiful way.

So Cole, I saw here that you do not like to be referred to as an expert, but you prefer the term coach. So can you talk to us a little bit about why that is? Yep. I think the experts are great for pioneering new information. We need them. We need them. And every now and then people like an Adam Grant or a Brene end up being experts and brilliant at communicating it. But by and large, experts are kind of the worst people.

to help the beginner. If you look up the learning model of people start, they are unconsciously incompetent. Remember when you were learning to drive? Remember that? You thought, can't be that hard. Can't be that hard. You're a 14 year old kid, yeah, I can't be, I watched my parents do it. And then you get behind the wheel and suddenly you go from unconsciously incompetent to consciously incompetent. You just suddenly know all the things you don't know and that's the moment you need help.

For a lot of people, that's the moment that they start looking for help. And they often reach to people who are unconsciously competent. And they ask those people, it's like your organized friend, and you say, can you help me organize? And they're like, just organize. And you're like, well, how do you do it? I don't know, I just do it. They're unconsciously competent and they're useless to help you. They're great if you need to hire somebody to do it, but they're useless if you want help. So I live in the third quadrant, it goes down.

They call it the valley of despair and I am consciously competent at social skills. And the way my brain and body are wired, I don't think I'll ever be unconsciously competent. Like the way I'm interacting right now, I have to think about it in order to translate the way I want to translate. And so I'm constantly thinking about it. And so I'm able to then communicate things to people that are feeling the pain and loneliness or disconnection or anxiety of not having those skills as opposed to an expert.

You know, it might feel good to the ego, but I think experts aren't necessarily the most helpful for people who are earlier on in their journey. I love that. I feel that too. I love your definition of that. I see myself in that manner a lot because I'm an educator. I was a teacher for many years and I see myself as that person who kind of helps you hold your hand step by step. This is how you do it and takes you through maybe a process that already exists.

but I'm going to break it down and be that person for you. So I love that distinction. Also, you were talking about a framework and I know I've read that book wherever that came from. Is that from Radical Candor? I never remember which book it is from. What was that from? It's the four stages of confidence learning model. That's it. People want to Google it. That's my encouragement to people who are not far along. People wait to start businesses or to help people until they feel like they're...

I'm good enough. That's an ego lying to you. Once you've had some success, you can reach back better to the person a little ways behind you than an expert can. It's terrifying. It's terrifying to know there are people better at what you do than you. But my goal isn't to be the best at something, it's to actually help people. And it seems to be helpful. So I just keep showing up trying to do it. I love this so much because when you had said earlier that there are a lot of implicit rules with explicit consequences. I felt that in.

The middle school version of Kat felt that in her soul when, I don't know if you guys had similar experiences, but when you go from elementary school where everybody's friends with everybody, maybe it starts to, there starts to be some clicks and divides around that fifth grade level. But you go to middle school and I remember clearly, didn't know it at the time, but realizing that I was wired differently energy -wise and being very introverted and very in my head.

Candice knows, one of the analogies I use is to explain that my mind is a multiverse. Even my partner will be like, where are you right now? I'll be like, I'm 10 years ago remembering the book that I read under the tree in Portland, Oregon. And then seeing everybody else who is super extroverted and who could just work a room. And you walk through the halls and then the C parts for them. And they're playing sports and on dancing, all these things. I love that. And I'd be curious to know what your thoughts are on.

like introversion and extraversion and how that plays into communication and how you not label yourself, but like on that spectrum, like how, where do you see you, you you falling? I definitely tend toward extraversion. I hate running, but we were, was at the gym the other day and a guy got on the treadmill next to me and I ran like a 5k without even getting winded because we were just talking the whole time. So I think I, I squarely fall on extraversion, but we got a whole mixed bag in our house. We've got ADHD folks who are introverted. We've got extraversion.

I think we give it too much power. It's not that it's not helpful, it's just that it's mostly helpful for knowing how you recharge. So introverts are, when they're in a social interaction, they're coin bank, they're giving them out. And extroverts, when they're in a social interaction, are taking them in, right?

So to say that introverts don't like people is foolish because every time they're with them, they're contributing and sacrificing in order to be with people. So introverts get a really bad rap, but you probably need to recharge after that, right? You need to refill. Yeah. When you're alone, coins are filling up and once it's filled. So you have to think critically about what kind of engagements you have. And especially in like the business world, you'll have people that are hyper extroverts. So they're just constantly networking. And you're like, I can't.

do that. Like I don't, it'll empty and you're going to get a version of me you don't like. So it's, it's valid for capacity, but I don't think that it's valid for skills because while you're recharging, you might have some thoughtfulness that is really needed. My oldest daughter is massive introvert and you don't get her all the time, but when you get her, she says things that just

And there's a lovely Ted talk on the power of introverts and leadership that if anybody's, if you haven't watched it, it's a woman and she is just, she's an introvert and she talks about the wisdom of introverts and leadership. And I think it's, it's really, really wise. So as far as skills, think introverts and extroverts are kind of on an even playing field. I certainly get more at bats as an extrovert, but I think you can take time and reflect and think through stuff. As long as the spotlight doesn't constantly feel like on Kat in middle school, that spotlight feels like it's on you.

So what we're doing is we're trying to interact with another person, but what we're not, we're not actually seeing them. You're just trying to present some avatar of yourself that they'll give a thumbs up or thumbs down to. And that's what we would refer to as the ego. And the trick is just getting that mind off of you. Self -awareness is a gift. Self -consciousness is crippling. So self -awareness, that's why a lot of my videos I'll say, you're known and loved, right? You screwed up. You're known and loved. You're still known and worthy of love.

You did great. You're not better than anybody. Because that self -consciousness can kind of take over and then we can't see people. So introversion, great if we're doing it as a self -awareness exercise. If it's starting to snowball into self -consciousness, we need to kind of hit the brakes and just get curious about another person and get outside of ourselves. Can we shift gears a little bit here, Cole? This is selfishly, but also because I know the clever crew, we have a lot of people who identify as introverts. And you mentioned how skills.

are essentially for everyone and you can develop the skills no matter if you're introverted or extroverted. So can you specifically, I watched your video about you have a reel about conversation minimizers and I was like, oof, guilty of some of those for sure. I think the podcast has helped a lot in learning how to navigate not using conversation minimizers. But can you use this time to help us build some skills in conversation?

Yeah, some practical skills people can kind of walk away from listening and start using. Great. Let me say this before we get to the skills. The skills are helpful if you take them into the world and see the world as a playground. We are trying. We're going to try. We're going to fail. We're going to learn. If you see it as a courtroom, bad news bears, right? God, I just keep saying just, I got to stop that. Stop it with the ums. Shake it out. Okay, stop it with the ums.

Right when we're beating ourselves up. When you're making it a hard and fast rule, like this is the rule, I could never do it. That's a problem. We're just, making iterations and changing. We get to play with how we engage in the world. Like whether you use the word just or not isn't who you are as a human being. So just play with it and see what works. And you'll find out what's important to you. No, I speak this way because it's important to me, but it's like 10 % of things, it's not much. So let's talk about skills. Keep it playful.

and we can talk about skills as long as it's not a courtroom and you're going out and you're passing and failing. I do think limiting minimizers, but using them when you want to. So if you're in a place of power, I use it. If I have somebody and I think they're intimidated by me and I want to talk to them about something that I think might be difficult, I will say, can we chat? I just wanted to run some stuff by you and talk through some stuff and hear me minimizing it.

I'm just, I don't know. don't know. know, I just, don't know. Just kinda sorta, maybe just kinda sorta, Throw in an accent, yeah. Yeah, I'm getting Southern, because Southern people are real polite. I grew up in Georgia. can, you know, I can attest. But then if we want to act with some authority, man, you remove all of those minimizers, those just kinda, I don't know, and say, hey, can we talk for a minute? I wanted to talk to you about something that happened yesterday, and it's important to me.

And if that person tends to not take it seriously, they're like, Right? And so we are in charge of how we engage in the world. That's one. God, there's like a million. I would say if you're going to talk to somebody about something, especially if you're like kind of standing on the back, you're in your clamshell and you're watching people and you want to talk to somebody about something, I would say an observation before you engage in a question is really helpful because while we are in the same physical space,

I don't forget what you refer to it as like I'm in another place. Yeah, multiverse. You're in the multiverse. I need to pull you from the multiverse to here and I need to point you in the direction of the thing that I'm wanting to talk about. You're right. So we're standing there. We're at a networking event. You know, I notice, you know, somebody has Apple AirPods or something. Hey, I noticed you have Apple AirPods. Small move. But then they're like, from all the things. my AirPods.

great, what about them? And be like, I was wondering, I was thinking of getting some, they seem overpriced for a pair of head, like, are they worth it? And now we're in a, because they're not located there yet. And a lot of people will be like, do you like your earbuds? AirPods, earbuds, earbuds is a movie about a dog. It was a fantastic classic movie. It's not in the rule book. So observe before you ask questions. And then if you're going to ask a question,

Try not to use why. That one is huge. If you have kids, I can save your parental relationship right now. Why triggers defensiveness? Now if I'm coaching you, I might say, Candice, why do you think you do that? Let's explore that. Because you've given me permission to partner with you to self -reflect. But when we're just engaging with another human being, why is rarely a helpful question.

If you could spend the next year just going, all right, I'm gonna take all my why questions, which are great internal questions that we have in here. You see somebody and you're like, I wonder why she wore that today. I wonder why he's not talking to that person. We have these wonderings and those are good, but we have to, before they go from our head out of our mouth to another person, we've got to craft them a little bit. And the number one way to make them more inviting to story is to remove why and introduce who or what.

I mean, but what and it's it's simple enough. But if you take like, especially with in my world with my kids, I'll, they'll say, well, then so and so did this and then I did this. And all I'm thinking is, why would you do that? So now I'm like, reword, reword. What were you thinking? No, that one doesn't work either. what? so yeah. So what happened that led to that? Well, she said this, and then I said this, and it works.

with pretty much everybody. Like we want to take people out of defense and data and we want to get them into story because story opens up worlds of interesting things because people are like, they're a whole lifetime of un -Googleable knowledge, which is, I think that's a Chad Littlefield quote. Yeah. Those are the two big ones. I, could, I mean, we could fill another hour and a half with random little tidbits, but. So helpful.

I think there was another skill too that I saw on your reels that really resonated with me because you had shared that this is really helpful for people who have ADHD or exhibit ADHD tendencies, whether or not they've been traditionally diagnosed, yeah, whatever it might be. And how when they're sharing something or they're in conversation with somebody and that person sharing something with them and they're like, my God, I immediately need to show them, but I totally see them and I get them and I want to be empathetic. And then they like, just the story spills out of them.

but then it feels kind of like they're like stealing the limelight of the person they're in conversation with. So I recognize that I do that. I also recognize my partner does that and he has ADHD tendencies, some more so than I do, but I'd love for you to share kind of the tip that you had shared in that reel, because that made an impact on me. Great. I'm so glad it did. We refer to, I didn't make this up. I heard somebody really smart say it I don't remember who it was. Actually his name was Michael, but I don't know his last name. The coffee shop in Fort Myers, Florida.

And he said, oftentimes we think what we're in is a conversation, but really it's a dual monologue. It's two people saying things in the general direction of another human being. But if there are no listeners, it's kind of like the proverbial tree that falls in the forest. If nobody hears it, who are you saying it to if nobody's listening? The trick is ADHD folks, their brains will, like the way it's wired is to share.

a reflexive story of a similar thing is to share empathy. So like my wife and her best friend both have ADHD, they will just back and forth. And there is no nobody's feeling like the spotlights being stolen. They're like, that's a whoo, and it's just a storm of energy. And they're fine. But the general rule like the like 80 % of the population is neurotypical 20 % is ADHD, dyslexic, autistic, the ND.

That's 20 % and that's everything that falls under that umbrella. So it's a small percentage. So when we say general rule of thumb, we're just saying eight times out of 10, it's gonna work well, is to ask a follow -up question to make sure you understand. I like to tell people you never understand. I promise I don't understand. You are always, always wrong. You're just becoming less wrong by asking more questions. Because when you share something like, Kat, when you shared with me your story about middle school, I have a picture in my head.

right, of what your middle school looked like, what you look like, what those interactions look like, how you saw it, you know, like I picture it all, but most of it's uninformed. So if I can follow up with a question, you know, somebody, I have the hardest time thinking of hypothetical situations, but you know, somebody says, I think the one on the reel was like, my dog went into the vet this weekend. And then,

You know, I want to be like, last year my dog went into the vet. It was tough. And they're like, well, that was fun. Let's go opposite. But what would it feel like if, if you said that to somebody and they went, my gosh, like, how's he doing? Like, was that stressful? You're like, is this person about to listen to me right now? People suck at questions. The average person is so bad at questions. And so, man, you do that for somebody, you could change somebody's week. You could change somebody's life.

because to be seen and heard is a powerful experience. And all it takes is a curious question, a curious, empathetic question. And then, so you go, instead of sharing your story, you go question, reflection, and then share your thing. So I'll go, what happened? How's he doing? man, that must've been tough. it a fortune? Dogs are expensive. Yeah, it was. Let him talk a little bit. Let him share. That helps.

That's what we're made to do with each other. And then, and then you go, man, man, I bet that was really tough, huh? Yeah. And that, have you ever had somebody reflect back to you what you say and you go, yes. Right. It's a great feeling. Yes. So good. Yes. Thank you. It's like, it's been stuck inside of you and in order for you to feel less crazy, you need to know. And once you get somebody to that point, and that's not all the time, but that's kind of what we're shooting for in conference. Like, yeah, yeah, it was. Then I go, man.

It's not exactly the same, but our dog was in the vet last year and I can only imagine he was in there for like two days. It cost a fortune. And we were like, is he gonna man? We cried about it. So that's tough. I'm sorry to hear that. And then you can move on. And that is a completely different exchange than two people just sharing like stories in a room together. So helpful. Really, I feel like for me, I'm hesitant to like ask a question because I don't know if I'm

crying or if I'm asking too much. Yeah, let's talk about that. What do you what do you concern will happen? What do you kind of project into the future? I asked that question and I'm prying. I think I'm going to make them uncomfortable if it's not the question that they want to ask. So I will avoid it. Not in my coaching, but in my interaction with a stranger at a networking event. Yeah, you're trying to guess what would be appropriate to ask and then ask that, right?

So Chad Littlefield, who if anybody hasn't seen his work, he does a lot of great work on connection, has been really instrumental in my life, says that connection, the invitation to connection always comes with the cost that somebody will reject it. And when we ask a curious question, I think one of the common situations where you see two people arrive somewhere together and you want to ask if they're together. yeah, I always want that tea.

You want to know and that is not an unreasonable thing to ask. You're curious. I'm curious your situation. I'm curious your background. I'm curious your story. I'm a very curious person and I find the more rules we put up about how we connect with one another, the less we're going to connect. It's this cultural moment is tearing us apart because I can't be curious because I'm so scared that my curiosity will offend. And I think that curiosity takes courage and I'm saying I would like to connect and know you.

And if the other person goes, no, you know, I've had people leave conversations and the husband was like, man, that was a good time at dinner. And the wife was like, not only was that the most uncomfortable thing I've ever done, but we will never talk to them again. Different people have different reactions to being seen. And if you're trying to hide and just put up a facade, then yeah, a genuine curious question can feel like an invasion and different people, different cultures see different things as prying.

And I think we need to trust people to set their boundaries. And if they're not capable of saying, hey, I'd rather not talk about that, that's a frailty in them that they need to work on. And that's OK. We're to let them work on it. But in the meantime, I'm going to ask curious, empathetic questions because I'd like to get to know people. And like 80 % of the time, it goes great. And then the other 20%, that's OK. Cool. think your next merch, the next piece of merch you design, should say Curiosity Takes Courage. love that. Takes Courage. All right.

We're going to write it down. I'm not Googling. go. That resonates. Once again, diving down this rabbit hole of tips from you, But Kat and I are going to this networking event in New York, Sell It. It's one of our favorite events that we go to each year. And we know that starting conversations can be awkward sometimes for us. We feel like we have some tips on that. But also exiting conversations can be awkward at times. I get cornered, Cole. Like, I love people, but like I'm just like,

Sometimes we need to learn how to gracefully exit a conversation. Have any tips for that? Let's leave off the table for a moment and we'll get to it. Somebody that is like oblivious to every single social cue in the world that's just like, well, blah, blah, blah. Because I do find that that's the effect. It gets a lot of attention, but it's not the common. let's talk about, this is my two, the two best ways to end a conversation.

And the beauty of a networking event, if you can, again, get back to the playful thing, see it as like, I'm going to get so many reps in. But if you go in with a plan, you're going to get some reps in and you're going to learn and it's going to be easier the next time. Go in with a plan because that makes us feel better. So yeah. So I would say to end a conversation, looping back to the beginning is the go -to for most people. Like anybody that's naturally winsome. Once you start dissecting how they're ending conversations, they're typically looping back to the beginning.

intent of the conversation. Hey, was so great to hear how your new business is going. I'm so glad to hear that you're getting some traction. Maybe we'll talk again soon. That is, I looped back to the beginning, I thanked them for the time, and then I expressed a hope for the future is kind of the basic formula that most people are doing. And you made them feel like you were listening because you gave them back the information that they shared. And if you're going to swap

contact information or whatever. If there's a logistical piece, I would typically do that on the end so that I can end with it. Which brings me into my second one. This is the best one. I like this move a lot. I did not make it up. It's not original to me, but let's be honest, what is? Seriously? Yeah. Well, just borrow it from each other consciously, unconsciously. Hey, before I go, plus something complimentary or thankful. Hey, before I go, I just wanted to

And I'll kind of turn my shoulders. I know we're getting into the weeds, but the weeds are where it happens. Hey, before I go, I just wanted to say, you're doing a great job. Like it really, like when I hear you talk about it, I think maybe you need to hear, you're doing a good job. And before I go, I just wanted you to know that. All right? See ya. And then you just leave. Then just leave. My shoulders are away before I go. And then if they, you know, yeah. Most people pick up on that. I have a question for you, Cole, but.

You know, I hadn't thought of until I was like listening to you, you know, talk about your family and your daughter and your kids and how you've got just this mishmash of personalities in your household. In your journey to helping others improve their communication and upskill, have your kids or have your wife ever taught you any lessons along the way? my God. Yeah. What are the specific ones? I think my wife has given me a ton of empathy on what the ADHD brain feels like. I think just do it.

It's not really a communication piece, but that ADHD empathy has been huge. Gosh, this is on the spot. Mindy's gonna listen to this and be like, you can't think of anything on the spot? No, no, no, I could. She's like, here's the 10 things you could have said. I'll tell you right now. Well, I'll share one just for my own learnings. Maybe it'll spark something. So my hubs, he's got ADHD tendencies and he loves to make his piles around the house.

I've moved 17 times since the age of 17 and I'm a ruthless minimalist. You I only need a few things. I have learned that if I put things away or I encourage him to put things away so that it's out of sight, out of mind, he'll forget and it'll be untouched for weeks, if not months. And I thought he was just making piles because he was like lazy or didn't want to take the time to put things away, but he genuinely needs the visual cues, like with his supplements, know, and like the fruits and the routines.

So huge learning for me. And I've learned to live with the pals because honestly, as far as character flaws go, like, that's not that bad. The one that I learned from my wife in leadership was in the communication is when we think about the people that are good at communicating things, we often think the winsome, pioneering, smooth talking, you know, salesman. But often I find that my wife is like a very hospitable, loving, like she just

Corine Ingrassia (30:46.944)
I want to talk to you, Candace. How are you? She just you implicitly trust her because you know, she's not trying to sell you anything. And I think I had read in a book somewhere that that wiring that nurture wiring tends to be more trustworthy in selling new things to people. So when I'm leading a team, if my wife is bought in, sometimes I'll bring my wife in to basically be like, look, I know Cole can take us into some crazy direction sometimes. He's thought this one through and though and she'll she'll say it poorly.

And they'll be like, okay, we believe it now. And I was like, I said that so much better. And they're like, yeah, but we don't believe you because you're good at saying things. So that idea that, I do think there's just a glory and a strength in our weaknesses if we're willing to look there, right? Not great at, she's not like a persuasive speech person, but she's more believable because of it. I'm bad at social interactions, so I've become good at coaching them.

Like what is that gap in you that we're trying to minimize that maybe just needs to be understood and kind of leaned into? Yep. That's so interesting. And I could, I'm thinking about all the times where Dom and I kind of needed each other in a situation because he's maybe too sales focused or too data driven or too whatever. outcome driven. Yep. Outcome driven. And I have to hop on the call with

I could think of our lender, our real estate agent, whoever. like, so Dom, I know, this is the big vision. This is where we're really trying to go, right? And then they're like, yeah, Candice, totally, we totally get it. Yep, but with Dom, they were just like fighting, you know, but with me, they're like, now that makes sense. And so it's so funny that you say that, but I think that's also what makes a great team, right? Is that everyone approaches things with their own strengths.

and their own talents and just understanding that you and your wife are on the same team and working towards the same goal and it looks different. Yeah, that's so cool. An observation, I'm trying to like, you know, practice these skills here. I've noticed and it sounds like your wife's great at like not taking things too seriously and being fun and like inviting some casualness without being seen as like unprofessional. And it just kind of like lowers people's guards. I've never talked to anybody when they were

like a kid and they were like, you know what I want to be when I grow up? Really professional. No, that's not on the vision board. Yeah, it's not on the vision board. You're like, I would like to be two different versions of me. And I would like to get really good at separating them. Nobody's wanting to do it. It's kind of a necessary evil to having different compartments in life. Can we talk about when you are in situations, I know I've been in the situation where

Maybe I'm in a meeting with people who are, let's say, more experienced than me, but I do have something to add to the conversation. I feel like I'm waiting for the moment to jump in, and I feel like if I keep waiting, I might miss this moment. How do I jump into a conversation? Maybe jump is the wrong word. How do I?

enter the conversation when I have something value to say if I've already entered the conversation feeling like maybe I'm not the boss here.

Anytime we have a question like this, we always have to go, are we solving it in the moment or are we building out a solution that can go forward? So if you're with a team, I'd solve it two different ways. In the moment, it's tricky, it's really situational. So I don't know how much I want What if I have a tool in my toolkit for the next time that I'm in that situation? Individually, you really want it individually, don't you?

Yeah, you do. That's fine. If I was in that moment, this is a little else on my wheelhouse because I feel like I talked to him. I'm kind of trying to do the other thing where I turn it down. I would find I would not minimize with your language or your body posture. I wouldn't apologize. Like people tend to be like, Hey, can I jump in here? Let me if I can jump in here. There's I think this is important. You know, I wouldn't I think I just maybe a dumb idea, but I just want to

I don't know. just, it might be a bad idea, but I just, don't, I kinda, I don't know. Right? That says like everybody in the room is like, this is about to be stupid. Even if it's brilliant. Have you heard of the Dunning -Kruger curve? So the Dunning -Kruger curve is if you go into a college classroom and you ask, this is to the mindset answer to your question, because part of its mindset of knowing like, I have something to contribute. Don't trust your perception of what you have to contribute. Trust other people's input on that.

Like if you have people that you trust, you need to trust their input because everything that you think is so ordinary to you. So the Dunning -Kruger, they would like pull college students who were about to take a test. How good do you think you're going to do? And the relationship between confidence and performance was inverse. Meaning, have you ever talked to somebody like, I'm just so stressed. I still know if it's going to go out, blah, blah. And then they do great.

Like, what are you talking about? You're crushing. It's the Dunning -Kruger effect at work. And so oftentimes we have people that have really great things to say, but think that they don't have much to say. And you're like, that's my daughter. Like, she's definitely there. She's some of the stuff she says. I'm just like, my gosh. So we've got to have a mindset that says, do have something to contribute. And usually you're not going to do that alone. You're going to need a friend that's going to be able to look in your eye and be like, hey, you got something to contribute and you need to contribute it. And I think.

Hopefully that's your team leader, but at least let it be a friend. And then when you do it, don't minimize it. Especially if you tend to be dismissed. Don't minimize it. I mean, don't shout. You don't have to be mean. There's like an onslaught of set boundaries. Like nobody wants, you're not trying to be a sassy jerk about it. You're just trying to jump in and be like, hey, let me throw something in. I'm not sure we're thinking about this. Go, go. And then over time, if people won't hear.

input, then I would say even before I would do that, I would always loop back to the leader who's leading facilitating those conversations and say, hey, I've found myself not finding an ability to get a word in edgewise. And I think we might be missing some perspective. How do you think I navigate this? Because really, they're the keeper of the rulebook, not me. And I could tell you to do something that they're going to like, that was unacceptable. What you just did in that meeting, you know, no, again, implicit rules with explicit consequences.

I'd fix it over time and I'd find out from that leader and it might encourage the leader if they're a good leader to go, hmm, maybe I should quiet some of my louder voices and turn up the volume on some of my quieter voices. love that. Thank you so much. That's really helpful. I've been in those situations, losing people and even numbers. Just kidding. the bus, find your buddy. Find your buddy. We don't want to lose odd numbers of people today.

I feel like partnership is so essential in everything we talk about at Not Nice Clever. And the only reason Kat and I have been able to do over 100, over 200 episodes of Not Nice Clever with incredible people like you, Cole, is by her being my biggest hype person and me being a little bit delusional and being like, hell yeah, I think we could do it to Kat. Just going back and forth. Yeah. And I...

think that having that person saying like, this is a good idea, you should share this has been really helpful in my career in general. Yeah, yeah, it's a big deal. It is a big deal. So Cole, before we wrap with rapid fire for the day here, I do have one last question for you. You've come so far in your journey, you're at various stages of different journeys, but what...

is true today? What's a reality today for you that was once a dream upon a time? You gotta narrow it down for me, Kat. Like in all of life? I don't remember. I teach social skills. I'm, I'm, you probably imply something here that I'm not picking up. What arena? Narrow it down. I can be anywhere? Yeah. Let's, okay. So let's talk about your, you know, you can see all of your personal growth and development, but let's talk about something personally in your life that you thought was out of reach when you were a kid.

It was a dream. was a pipe dream. It would be nice too. But that's actually a reality for you now.

I'm gonna give you something I wouldn't even have known to dream about. I have the sweetest relationship with my teenage kids. They are funny and ridiculous and awesome and they teach me stuff every day and I never, when I was 20, would have thought, you know what I really wanna be when I grow up? Close with a 15 year old teenager and talking about life and watching Marvel movies and going for walks.

I just, wouldn't have known that it would have been so beautiful and life -giving and people talk so bad about teens, but they are fascinating, lovely creatures. So that's for me. Like when you said it, that was the first thing that came to mind. Kind of more than I could have even imagined is like, just got these three little adults living in my house that like talk to me about their lives and my whole heart is invested in them.

And it's one of the greatest things I'm doing. So cool. That's beautiful. OK, Kat, this is all you. Rapid fire questions. know Cole seems a little bit nervous about this in the beginning, y 'all. I don't know if you got to hear that part, but he seemed a little nervous about this. He's been thinking about it for 40 minutes in the back of his mind. OK, number one, what was one of your childhood nicknames? I asked him to call me Cici on the basketball court in sixth grade. And it stood for, wait for it, it's going to hurt.

cool cold. Just to be clear, nobody actually called me that. I was doing a layup in Georgia on a metal mesh net and I was like, she called me cheesy. And then I would walk away and that hurts to remember. It didn't stick. Thanks for bringing that up. It's our pleasure. Okay. Are you team pumpkin spice or not? No, overrated. It's just, it's another flavor of sugar.

Here we go. What's the most underrated tool or software you use in your business? Underrated. I don't know what people think of things, so it's hard to say. Probably many chat. just could grieve that. So I don't know why anybody's looking at your bio. Just comment things. It'll DM it to you until somebody doesn't. And then you panic at 1 AM. By the way, if you comment on any of Cole's Reels small talk, you will get, yeah, I binged last night.

if you comment small talk on anything, you will get tips on small talk. don't know exactly, but it's going to be amazing. I'm sure she hasn't opened it yet, but it's sitting there. me, me comment now. Yep. Commenting. Okay. Next question. Best advice you've ever received. That's not a rapid fire question. Get out of here. I know that's a why question. That's a why question. Deepest wisdom ever uttered in your, I don't know. disconnect, success with identity.

Probably disconnect success with identity. That's a mic drop right there during rapid fire. You're worthy of love and respect. you crush it or not. Infinitely worthy. Mm -hmm. Yeah. Disconnect them too. Yeah, it's dumb. OK, here is a rapid fire. mean, hopefully we'll see. Who's your celebrity crush? I'm not gay, but Ryan Gosling.

God, that guy is beautiful. He transcends. He transcends. I could agree. I think a lot of men would agree with you, gay or straight. Yes. Who's my celebrity crush? I don't know. Who is? I can't think of anybody better than Ryan Gosling. I'm sticking with Ryan Gosling. you go. Way back down. That was a great answer. He's talented. He's beautiful. He built that house for that girl in the notebook. How did he get lumber at that price? I don't know. It was beautiful. And he wears that little buttoned hat forward without a seaming trite.

gosh. All the boxes. All the Last book or audio book you couldn't put down? Fantasties by George McDonald. my gosh. I'm in a fairy tale right now. Just get out of the nonfiction world for a minute. Leave it for a minute. You don't realize how compressed it is. The world's magical. And George McDonald was the, he was like the hero for Tolkien and C .S. Lewis. No way. So like this is the...

This is the upper pool that like Narnia's and Lord of the Rings and all that flow down from. And so I read, I think it's Fantasties, it's spelled with a P -H. And it was, I'll probably reread it every year for the rest of my life. It was magical and interesting and confusing and wonderful. Thanks for that. I'm going on vacay and I need a read so that sounds right up my alley. Speaking of next rapid fire, Candice is often as she just demonstrated at the airport. So Cole.

When you travel, are you arrive two hours before boarding or two minutes before boarding? About two minutes. No. See, it's nice to walk right on. Let me down. I thought you were team two hours. I mean, I'm not missing the flight. Like, I'm checking the USA lines, but I am minimizing the amount of time I'm at that airport. OK. Last rapid fire. I do love all things Marvel, fantasy, and astrology. So do you know your sign?

And if not, when's your birthday? January 30th. Aquarius. Aquarius. I have no idea how you get on board with this cat. All people born at the same time have the same personalities. They have the same influences that contribute to the nature versus nurture argument. That sounds like a workaround. It's okay. My other workaround is that it's just physics that we can't explain yet.

Like us thinking that gravity was who do, know, several centuries ago. I explain yet. can get down with that transcend and include. All right. There we go. Thank you so much for being with us today, Cole. We really enjoyed our time with you. Thanks for letting us selfishly steal all your skills and knowledge about communication. We appreciate it. Yeah. Glad to serve you guys. Before we go, tell the clever crew, where can they find you and hang out with you online? Yeah. So Instagram's, this is my name, Cole Jennette.

Facebook, I think it's Cole Jennette coaching. And then my website is lead overt .com. And we'll drop all of those in the show notes for everyone. Thank you so much. Thanks for joining us on not nice. Remember to follow not nice clever wherever you listen to audio. And if you haven't already dropped that five star review, share your takeaways. Tell us your story. We love to hear it. Signing off. You're not so nice, but so clever besties that mean business.

See you soon.