Chris Do on The Importance of Niching Down To Build A Powerful Brand

If you’ve ever felt like being an introvert holds you back in an extroverted world, you don't want to miss this interview with Chris Do!

In this episode, Chris breaks down the power of juxtaposition in branding—showing you why niching down can elevate your brand more than trying to appeal to the masses.

He also shares his journey from awkward introvert to thriving public speaker, sharing personal stories on navigating the art of networking, standing out in the crowd, and finding success on his own terms. Plus, we’ll debunk the myth that narrowing your focus means losing business—Chris proves the opposite is true.

Whether you're building a brand, growing your business, or just looking to level up, this episode is packed with actionable takeaways you won’t want to miss!

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• Candice Carcioppolo
• Kat Torre

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Transcript

I can share awkward introvert stories to the end of time. When you find two overlapping attributes that are really not connected, like they feel like on the surface polarities, and there's some kind of dichotomy that exists between these two. If we find that overlap, it's our own very unique special space. And we get into a room and we do these full day strategy sessions and the words in which they come up with to describe their brand are pretty generic.

They all say things like innovative, thoughtful, caring, organic. It was a company that was a forward-thinking beauty brand. It was using adaptogenics and Eastern ingredients with Western science. And I said to them, is that positioning sexy science? Can you speak a little bit more to the fear that comes up in people when you are working with clients who are just like, no, Chris, I'm going to lose business if I...

go only an inch wide. I'm going to lose business. What evidence do you have for this to be true? We were legitimately just talking about this earlier today. Adult fears of being a beginner again and in this digital space, being a beginner in front of people. I guess this is a thing about common sense. It's not so common. The more I know, the more I know what I don't know. And what I find is that when you think you've reached the top of the mountain, you just found that you're at the base of the next mountain. I'd like to say this though.

Maybe there's no end period. right. So Chris, we're super excited to have you on here today. It feels like just yesterday or maybe 10 years ago that we had first met at Neil's event forward in July earlier this year. but we're really excited to get into all the things today. And first question I have, which is what really stood out to me the most when you were hosting your keynote in Vegas earlier this summer, you took us through a really

intense like workshop. really opened up a lot. No, it's good. We're all about intense. We don't apologize. We rip off the band-aids here at Not Nice Clever. Candice goes deep. So one thing that I loved about your workshop, because the thing we've noticed about branding is that it can be so fuzzy and nebulous, but you really broke it down into some tangible ways. And you did that by talking about juxtapositions and about developing your two word brand and the

One of the examples that stood out to me the most was being a recovering people pleaser and how you could incorporate that into your branding. And of course, you being a loud introvert, there's another juxtaposition. So it really stood out to me. And I just want to know kind of like, where did the genesis of that approach come from in your work? Many years ago, I used to do corporate work and I used to do brand strategy for corporations.

And so nationally, happens is when you gather together a room of executives, C-level, C-suite executives, they're a little bit out of touch with what they're doing, with the marketing, with the voice. And it's not that they're bad people. It's just they have a lot of other things to worry about. So then somewhere along the way, they find like, gosh, what we have is super watered down. It's very generic. And we get into a room and we do these full day strategy sessions. And the words in which they come up with to describe their brand are pretty generic.

They'll say things like innovative, thoughtful, caring, organic, whatever it is they want to say. And what we have to do is we have to push past all that. So I figured like asking them to come up with words that are braver, bolder, a little bit off the beaten path was futile. They're just going to use more words that they already know, because we only want to see ourselves in a very positive light. So it was kind of a trick. I say like, what would our critics say about us right now? And then it's kind of interesting, like,

When we kind of walk around in this world, we're tuned to the positive, but as soon as you give somebody a negative opportunity, they'll pile it on. They're like, well, they think this about us. And so then what we do is we get to a place of truth. And like, well, Chris, this feels terrible. Thanks for ruining our brand and our day today. I'm like, well, hold on, hold on, everybody, before we jump off the bridge. We're not done yet. Let me pull you back here. Now, how can this thing be a positive attribute? Because I find when you find two overlapping attributes,

that are really not connected. Like they feel like on the surface polarities and there's some kind of dichotomy that exists between these two. If we find that overlap, it's our own very unique special space. And we can find it super magical. There was a company that was a forward thinking beauty brand, Digestible Cosmetics. It was using adaptogenics and Eastern ingredients with Western science. And so eventually we got to this place and I said to them,

Is that positioning sexy science? And like, my gosh, maybe that's what it is. So it's, it can't be for legal reasons. They can't say does X, Y, and Z because to get the FDA or whoever to approve that you have to run so many tests. It's a very expensive thing, but they believe it's based in science, but there's something that's beautiful about it. That's Eastern metaphysics and something much more natural to like ancient wisdom.

So sexy science became a thing that's like, OK, I think we can own this category. So when we go too far towards beauty and fluff and woo, we have to pull it back. And when we try to be like a big pharma company, we know we can't claim that. So this is a little space we can claim and we can defend this. And this is pretty awesome. That's where it began. I love that. We love a good alliteration here, Not Nice Clever. And this is something that I think

A lot of people, see it, right? Candice, people are like, no, we have to go broad and speak to everybody so we don't limit ourselves and lose out on business. But it's so counterintuitive to go deep and go narrow, but that's where you really see the magic happen. Yes. There's an expression in positioning. It says something like, don't go a mile wide and an inch deep. Go an inch wide and a mile deep. That's where the good stuff is. That's where you find pay dirt. Yep. Agreed.

Can you speak a little bit more to the fear that comes up in people when you are working with clients who are just like, no, Chris, I'm going to lose business if I go only an inch wide. I'm going to lose business. It's actually going to hurt me. And what if people won't want to work with me, hire me, all the things because they think I can't help them because I only speak to this, you know, this small segment? what is that conversation? What does that conversation sound like?

when you're talking to a client because it's something that Kat and I experience all the time. So here's the thing. We want to have customers who love us, right? So for them to love us, I say, well, we should love them first. And a friend of mine, his name is Eamon and he's a former CEO of AppSumo. He said something like this to try to build a website that speaks to all people. like writing a love letter and saying,

and starting it off with, whom it may concern. Okay, just think about that. Let that process a little bit. So what you're saying is, I love you clients, but to whom it may concern is like, I don't know who you are. I don't know what you're wanting to Insulting, personally. little bit, doesn't it? Yeah. Excuse me? Yeah. Are you talking to me? No, I don't think so. Let me just burn this letter right here. So what we knew is if we understand it in that context, well, what are we doing here? And I know it's counterintuitive yet. I guess this is the thing about

common sense, it's not so common in that they think if I go wide, if I try to reach as many customers as possible, I'll have the most number of opportunities. And then what we can say is, what evidence do you have for this to be true? Let's look at it. Let's look at competitors. Let's look at companies and brands you admire, not where they are today, but how they became who they are today. And that's a mistake a lot of people do. They copy someone's end in terms of their journey versus where they began. But you're at the beginning of your journey.

And you're trying to like go where they are. So if they've got a PhD, they're a Nobel laureate, they're a world renowned speaker, they've written 10 bestselling book, you're like, that's the path to success, Chris, I'll just do that. I'm like, really? Or maybe you just got to go to school first. Maybe you got to get your, your doctorate degree. Maybe you got to start putting thoughts together. Why don't we retrace their steps and start where it makes sense for us versus like going to the end makes no sense whatsoever.

We were legitimately just talking about this earlier today. People's adult fears of being a beginner again and in this digital space, being a beginner in front of people, in front of others and opening themselves up and being vulnerable in that way. We see that all the time, but you're never going to get to the end journey or enjoy the destination if you don't start by being a beginner first. That's where everybody starts. That's where you started, that's where we started. Nobody is exempt from being a beginner.

I'd like to say this though, maybe, maybe there's no end period. I think that's a finite mindset. That's a fixed mindset. So we enjoy the process. say life is a, is a continuum of growing, of learning and adapting and changing that I think the people I find that are intelligent, they, they almost always say the same thing, which is the more I know, the more I know what I don't know. And it's only ignorant people. Like I know everything there is to know about X, Y or Z.

And it's kind of weird, right? Again, it's counterintuitive. We think, well, you've reached the terminus of whatever it is that you're learning about. Well, really, is that the end or is there more to it? And what I find is that when you think you've reached the top of the mountain, you've just found that you're at the base of the next mountain. So keep climbing, keep loving the adventure and you're going to grow and stay young all your life. love it. So I may have done a little bit of light internet stalking, also known as research prior to this podcast. We do our homework here.

Yeah, we did our homework. And so I was watching some of your YouTube videos, watching some of your interviews with other people and you were talking about being an introvert. Specifically, there was a story about you getting invited to a dinner in LA and you were going to go by yourself and you were feeling a little bit unsure. You're like, I don't want to be in this space with all these people, right? Like introvert is coming up and it didn't sound good to you, but you heard that Alex Hermosy was going to be there and he's someone that you wanted to have on your podcast. So that kind of convinced you, swayed you to go.

And that's interesting because Kat and I experienced that often we get invited places. We're like, oof, I don't know if I can handle it. I didn't manage my energy the day before. Like, is this something I can do? But in addition to that, I find that something that really helps me push through is if I have a goal. If there's some goal that I know I can accomplish while I am there, or there's a conversation I can have, I feel like I'm,

in a different mode all of a sudden. And it's not about, I'm not worried about the weird awkward conversations that I might have to have because I know I'm working towards a specific thing. Can you just like talk to us a little bit about that story for people who haven't heard that story and like what actually ended up happening? Cause I think that you had one certain goal and something else came of it. Yeah. All kinds of crazy things happen.

How long is your podcast? Because I can share awkward introvert stories to the end of time. Our audience would love it. It would feel so seen and so heard if that's all we talked about. So let me tell you this story and then I can tell you other weirder stories and how one adapts to this extroverted world it seems. And just for a point of clarity, my friend Eric said, hey, Chris, I want you to speak at my mastermind. I'm like, how much are you going to pay me?

because I got no budget. like, I think I'm busy that day. I'm pretty sure my schedule is all booked up because here's the deal. I can't pay anybody. I don't pay anybody. But you know, I heard you want to have a Hormozian. He's going to be there at dinner and the speaker's dinner. Like, it. he's throwing that hook in front of me. I'm like, fudge. can get, well, first of all, I live in LA, right? So to drive from the West side to Beverly Hills, that's just, that's an adventure in itself. It's trek. People don't know.

Traffic is real. It's real. It's an extreme sport in LA. It is. And I'm like, dang it. And I got to park and I got to figure this thing out and I got to drive back again and do this thing twice, whatever. So I think about it. like, all right, man, I'm in. I mean, what you'll do to get somebody on your podcast is just ridiculous, right? Yeah, exactly. We know. We've got stories. Okay. So I'm like, okay, I'll go do this dinner.

So I go and of course I know nobody. I don't know anybody there. I know Eric's as soon as I see him, I'm like freaking safety blanket. Hey bro, what are you doing? Let me just stay by your side the whole time. damn dude, don't leave me bro. I know you're the host and I know you got a lot of people you gotta talk to. And so I see some other faces. like, well, I think I kind of recognize some people. Anyways, we're in this wanky Beverly Hills restaurant. We're sitting there. He's like, Chris, you're sitting here. I'm like, great. And then next to me is Hormozi.

Yeah. And so there's like strategic seating here. I'm sorted in the middle to the left. It's a pretty long table. So at the edges of the table, you don't know who they are. It's like, you can't talk to them. It's too far, it's too loud. I think they're like 12, 14 people here. And I just introduced myself to Tom Ramosi talk a little bit and like, Hey, you know, I'd love to have you on the podcast. Maybe when it works out for you, whatever. don't want to, you know, that's enough for me. Just state your intention. We'll put that story aside. So I'm like, okay, whatever.

But the cool part is, like when you open yourself to uncomfortable new experiences that are outside your outside the box outside your comfort zone, sometimes cool things happen. And there's a gentleman, he's sitting in the left corner of the table in the darkness and he's got really long curly hair. It looks like Jesus. he speaks with like a very low soft tone and this Australian accent. like, you know, he's like, Hey Chris, I'm Sam. I'm like, Sam, I know who you are. One of my buddies like worships you. So it's like, I know who you are.

And we start talking a little bit and he introduces this idea to me about starting a mastermind. Something I've been thinking about a lot, but since I've never been a part of one, intent on joining one, I need somebody to tell me what's up. How's this structured? I don't need a step-by-step plan. I just need what's the big idea. So that night within 25 minutes or so, he convinces myself and through scattershot to other people next to me to start masterminds. It's pretty wild. And then I'm super excited.

I'm like in the car driving home and calling my chief operating officer, Ben Burns. And I'm like, Ben, Ben, okay, you know this thing I've been talking about? I figured it out how to do it. It's It's happening. And he's a great Chris. So true to Ben's character, by the next morning, he's already got a document with everything we talked about how we're going to do this. And so those are the kind of rewards you can get when you step into that like area of darkness and unknown territory. Cool things can happen. Not always. Are there any

practices, rituals, anything that you do to kind of hype yourself up before a situation like that. Show up routines. I you know. I know you know. You're not pretending. We each have our show up routine. We'll share ours after you share yours. Okay, very good. Okay. Let's switch it up. Let's switch it to something else. Like there's a party or an event, right? Yeah. I'm a speaker and so sometimes as a speaker you get invited to these these kind of pre-event parties. I'm like, good.

And I'm a horrible person. I'm a horrible, yeah, no kidding. I'm a horrible person in that I'm so in my own head, I'm worried about what I'm gonna say that I don't even look up who's gonna be speaking. Stop walking, they're completely clueless, right? So that's the part of the problem. So here's what I do. What I do is I kind of just say to myself, what's the first viable step in order to get there? Well, I gotta get out of the bed in the hotel room. I mean, let's start there.

You know, low ambition. Turn off the freaking TV, okay? Stop telling yourself this is where you need to be, because nothing's happening here. I promise you, nothing good is happening here. So I'm like, okay, let me, you know, let me shave or shower or put on some clothes. I'm like, okay, now what? Now I'm clean, I smell good, I look good, I think. The socks match, the shirt. I'm like, okay, what's the next? Why, I feel a little silly sitting here. Maybe I should go down to the lobby. I go down to the lobby, I'm like...

Now that I'm here, do you know where this bar or hotel is where this event is happening? Yeah, yeah, just go there. I'm like, all right. And here's how bad I am. I'm going to walk it. I need to like figure this out before I get there. Uber's too quick, right? So I walk there. I'm like, okay, this looks like the place, I think. I walk in there, look around. like, I hear noise, but I don't see anybody. And so it's just this ritual of doing the next step. And you start with the first step.

And recently I came across this video from an old time YouTube influencer, name is Mike Chang. And he used to be like this six pack ab shortcuts guy, little cheesy. But now he's way more spiritual. He's married and has a kid and he says something very different. His whole energy and aura is different. And here's what he said and I'll bring this home in a second. He said, the best exercise is just to do one rep. I know what everybody tells you, you got to do circuit training, you got to do hip training.

You got to do all these weird things. You got to just do one rep. And it's about just understanding your energy. So let's just say you're going to do an arm curl. So just get yourself into the gym. Do one arm curl, put it down, walk away from it, and ask yourself, how's my energy? How am I feeling right now? Just really check in with yourself. And it goes, if that's it for you, that's it for you. Go back to doing what you're doing. But if that felt good, just do one more rep. Okay, okay, let me just do one more rep. And then you do two reps. you're like, how's that feeling? How's your energy? Is it better? Is it worse?

And then before you know it, you might actually do a 15, 20 minute workout that leads to an hour long workout. And that's the way you're supposed to do it. He goes, don't go into it saying I'm going to do one rep and then I need to do 30 minutes. Cause that's just too much. And most people are going to turn away. And I love that approach. And there's a lot of people that I read about who are super fit. They have the same struggles as you or I. It's just like, I hate this, but I got to do it. I'm just going to show up and sit in the lot for a while and see what happens. And so that's the idea.

So when you're dreading something, just ask yourself, what's the first viable step? Because step 10 can't happen if step nine doesn't happen versus eight, seven. So just start with the first step and then just checking with yourself, how do I feel right now? I love it. I love that advice. It's funny you mentioned like you're so in your head and worrying about what you're going to say and then not realizing that so many other people are like that too.

And so part of my show up routine, it's a little different than yours. It's still very like step by step. Like I tried to zoom in and get like out of my head and into my body. So I'll go and I'll take a walk. I'll play some music, like music completely changes the frequency of my entire body. And then I'll, I'll shower. Like I absolutely have to shower. Even if I showered that morning, I'll shower right before an event. I'll shower right before training. just like, that's like my meditation space and I have to do that. And then I've got my skincare and everything. And I'm like, I'm set to go.

But I feel like everybody has, and I didn't even know it was called a show up routine until one of our friends who she's a insanely smart, she's a PhD in performance science and knows humans and how to get humans to move. And I was explaining to her, I was like, I have to hop off this call because we're going live in a little bit and I have to shower first. She's like, is that your show up routine? And I was like, so it's a thing. It's not just me being weird and wanting to be in the shower before I hop on here. There are similar parallels. I'm sorry. There's similar parallels to

to creative things and sports and things like that. Yeah. I'll park that. Definitely. Candice, go ahead. Sorry. No, it's fine. I was going to say that I have to know what I'm going to wear. That can't be a barrier. I can't in that moment right before I'm about to go on stage, right before I'm about to lead a workshop, whatever, or go to a dinner with people who I admire.

If I have to think about what I'm going to wear, it's going to make my energy frantic and I will not be able to calm down. So that has to be something I plan well ahead of time. And I have to feel good about everything. Nothing can be itchy. Nothing can be tight. Nothing can be like, has to feel literally good on my body or I will be distracted. And so that's something that I definitely spend time thinking about. then

probably prior to the event, I'm only with my safety blanket people. I'm only with people who I... stay. Yes, totally. Right? Like my best friends, I'm with Kat, I'm with people who I'm not, there's no filter with them. Those are the only people that I can spend time with before. And then what I haven't been good at, but I want to be better at is after I do something like that, that's pushing me out of my comfort zone is to give myself some downtime.

Like I need to process it after the fact, right? After the fact, I need to sit down and have some alone time. And I wasn't, and haven't been good about doing that, but that's something I'm working on now. Candice, I have a question for you. Yeah. Do you have some go-to outfits that you're like, these things are the bomb. It always works every I know what she's going to say. Yeah. Two or three outfits. Okay. So I love jeans and a blazer.

a blazer can immediately make you feel like you are put together. for me, jeans, blazer, heels combination is kind of a go-to standard. And these are not necessarily outfits, but they're, I do the power pony. So you might not be able to do this, Chris, but I do the high ponytail. Yeah. High pony energy. I can't do that at all. I was just going say about that.

But a high ponytail, I feel like that is me. am on. I can do anything with the power pony. And then big hoop energy. I got to bring my hoop earrings. I'm not wearing them right now because of these, but normally wearing hoop earrings makes me feel better. So those are just like a couple things, but definitely nothing itchy. That is a no-go for me. So we all have what we are inner demons. We know how to conquer them. So when we deviate from that, I think it puts us like it dysregulates us like, wow.

I'm just not feeling good. And then it's just like a domino chain reaction of things that are going to happen. Right. And it seems like something so small. Like what does it make a difference? Like what you're wearing, Candice or Kat, like if you can't take a shower, like it seems so small, but it's so impactful because it sets you off on the right foot and how you start something is so indicative of how

you move through it and how you finish it. so I think, yeah, knowing yourself and being curious about like what show up routine works for you and trying different things. Yeah. One thing we haven't talked about on Not Nice Clever, which I think is really important and you touched on it when you were on stage this summer was how like clothing, what you wear, how you dress. Like, obviously you have a look, Chris, and it works for you. I want to know before Chris found

this. Where were you? And was it weird? Was it weird when you decided what to like commit to a look? it weird for other people? was the feedback? you get her talking about clothing, she'll just go all. Alright, let's let's go there. So I wanted to say this, though. I think we all have a routine, you have your show up routine, and then you have your outfit. And I got my weird

psychosis, whatever it is, right? But I think all these things that we do, hopefully, are just training wheels. And eventually we take the training wheels off and like, hey, I'm riding. And then you're riding no hands. And then you're in a race and you're in the Tour de France. And I think we have to get to that place at some point, I think. Because the minute that the water, like your plumbing is broken and you can't take a shower, you're like, no, I just can't do this. I just can't do it. That's a good call out.

Right. And your jeans are like, have a stain on like fudge. can't wear the jeans now. Now what am I going to do? And there's a little story here. Do you guys know who Michael Bay is? Yes. The maestro of explosions and action films. Yeah. And like world famous director. Blue and yellow filters and that. Yeah. It's all his angles. Teal and oranges, believe. Yes. There we go. Yes. And the moving camera. Okay. Transformers, Pearl Harbor, Armageddon, you know, go on down the line. Okay. Well, Michael Bay was invited to speak at

some kind of conference that I think CS show for like Samsung, it's a huge stage is very corporate. They introduce him, he steps on stage and normally a fairly loud brash confident guy goes on stage. It's pretty skinny. He starts talking is something is wrong with this slides with the notes, something is off. And this is a guy who's, you know, commanded a billion, multi billion dollar budget films franchises. Okay, he's not some some rookie gets on stage and he's like, Hey, this is not work.

Hey, yeah. and he forgets how to speak English and he has a complete meltdown on stage and just storms off like a child. I'm like, my God, come on, Michael. Who cares? If you're in your underwear and you're, you, you, you don't, your hair's all messy and the slides don't work. Just tell a story about what it's like to work with Shia Laleh Booth or give us something and then get off stage is fine.

So that's what happens when we have too many props to hold us up. That we can then get totally f'ed up. So I just want to warn everybody. Yes, in the beginning, you have your routine and slowly wean yourself off the routine and just realize one thing. If you're weird, if you're awkward and no one wants to talk to you, just accept that that's you and that's totally fine. Yes. I'm going tell you a really awkward, weird story. So I go to that speaker's party.

I step in and aside from meeting the host again, it's like I'm lost in the sea of people. I'm in Canada. I'm like, damn, I'm not used to the temperature, but I don't know anybody here. And a buddy of mine is supposed to meet me there, another speaker, and I don't see him anywhere. So now I'm really lost. And I'm thinking to myself the whole time, time to leave, time to leave, let's go, let's go. And there's groups of people. You know how like there's circles that are formed? How do you break into that? Everybody seems so happy talking to each other. middle school dance all over again. you're just like...

And their shoulders are like impenetrable. Yeah, like exactly, okay? The nightmare of every awkward shy introverted person. Yes. I'm like, I need to leave. What do I do? So I just buy myself some time. Let me get a drink. For me, a drink, it's like seltzer water, right? Like, okay, I'm just gonna hold this and I now I have something for my hands to do. And I'm drinking slowly. I'm almost sometimes even pretending I'm drinking because

If I drink it all, now I got nothing to do again and I gotta go back. Okay, it's super weird. And I'm thinking, my God, what am I gonna do here? So I just imagined myself in that moment as a tree.

I'm gonna put my roots down on this ground right here. And I'm just gonna be here just like how trees are. They don't care what you're doing. And then position myself strategically between the high traffic zone, between the bar and the bathroom. Because that's only time people break out from their groups. And I'm looking for another lost soul because it's easier to befriend another dork than it is to like, hey cool person, I'm coming king and queen. And then you start a podcast together. You know what mean?

So it's like, just put my foot there and I just sat there for a while. I'm like, until they turn on the lights and tell us to go home, I'm just going to sit here. I'm going to push past that level of discomfort. Now I'm not going lie to you. My heart's racing. I got a cold sweat going on in the back and I'm like, okay, I'm just going to sit here. And after a while it's like, it's totally fine. I stopped pretending like, yeah, I'm cool. Right? I'm just going to, I know I'm totally weird. I'm just going to be like a tree stump. I'm just going to sit here. And you know, the funny thing is it feels like a long time, but it's probably like only five or six minutes.

Yeah. Somebody taps me on the shoulder. turn around like, thank God. Thank God. Who are you? Who are you, friend? don't care who you are. You could be a guy giving me a ticket. I don't really care. I turn around like, hey. And they're like, hey, you're a speaker. I'm like, yes, I am. Tell me about you. And then the conversation happens. The really weird thing is, as soon as one person invites you to the conversation, then three other people are like, hey, Chris. I'm like, hello. And there it is. And this is, I'm sorry to say.

Not an isolated incident. I do this all the time. I'm like, you know what? I'm being weird by myself. Who cares? We should get over it. Yep. All right. You want to talk about style? I do. I do. Yeah. Because here's why. Let's start with one question. I think when you're an adult and you are finding your style and you're trying something new and everyone's watching you and they're like, who does he think he is? He thinks he's like so cool now. He thinks he's got swag now. Like that kind of stuff is definitely going to happen.

How did that look in your life and why did you decide that you were going to have a change of style? Yeah. I'm going take you to John Steinbeck Middle School. wow. Bringing back the classic. We're going back. I believe this is like the late 80s or something like this. It's got to be the late 80s. I'm an 80s kid, so I'm there like, you know what? I've just...

worn the clothes my mom tells me to wear for a long time. Zero style, right? And then I have an older brother who's pretty stylish. She's four years older than me. I'm like, okay, I need to eventually go from the caterpillar to the butterfly, I think. So right before Christmas holiday, I'm like, I'm ready to rock my new outfit. I'm gonna get my new haircut. I'm ready to go. I got a couple of pieces. I could do this more than one day.

Okay, so literally the day before holiday because I'm like I'm just gonna drop it on people and see what happens I I go and like there people look at me like who this? I don't know you guys are right with this. I'm figuring it out I'm just working through this right? Yeah, and then all of sudden you get some positive attention like this sure beats getting beaten up This is this is all right So I go into the holiday and thinking I have enough courage to do this again and again and again

And eventually, you know, the cool people are like, hey, you want to sit with us? I'm like... Yeah, yeah, I'll sit with you. Cool. Yeah, this is cool. So, you know, you... And I think in adult life, it's not that different than junior high all over again, unfortunately. You don't really escape it. So I think at some point, when I make some money, and I'm not focused on, you know, finishing homework in college, I'm like, I have some money now. Well, now can buy my own clothes. I can start to figure this thing out.

So I think, you I think I have a design sensibility and it's just an evolution. So you hit a certain chapter in your life. You're like, what's the next chapter? So here I am. I'm rocking probably G star. I like a couple of different things, you know, it's fine. You know, I kind of like this, this, slim fitting military inspired look, you know, and layered useless accessories that I don't know. There's too many pockets for stuff like, and I don't use any of them, but they're kind of cool.

It's like this paramilitary tactical stuff. But you know, here's where I joined the dark side. So my wife has been encouraging me to buy stuff. Now, okay, we grew up in two totally very different places. She grew up in Taiwan, where everybody looks like her. She's part of the dominant culture. Their upper class, her dad is a commercial pilot. So they have money. They can shop and go on vacations.

We're refugees living in America. We nothing like anybody. I'm just picked on most of my life feeling very different. So we're in a very different place. So when we're in college and she's like, please don't tell this story. I'm like, babe, I gotta tell the story. I'm living off like sandwiches and you know, trying to like use coupons to buy whatever I need to live. She's like, I wonder what they're doing at Barney's. I gotta go buy some couture. I'm like, my God. We're in totally, we're just friends, but I'm just grossed out by this. Like, God dang you rich bastards.

I'm just trying to scrape by, you know, my beater like hand me down car and there you guys are driving your beamers and whatever it's like, one day, I want to show you one day. Right? So she's been encouraging me throughout our marriage like, hey, just go for it. You work so hard. You earned it. I'm like, no, I'm not gonna buy into this clothing hype game, luxury goods. I'm not gonna get manipulated by that. But here's the thing. Once you go, there's no turning back. It's just a warning.

Right? There's a public service announcement for everybody. Once you get into luxury goods, like, this is what the good life is like. Okay. And the next thing you know, you're like tracking down pieces that are vintage or out of season. And that's what happened to me. So what you saw on the stage is the latest evolution of me exploring brands and things that I thought were out of reach in terms of price point, this discomfort I had. But I'm just, I'm going to do this. But there's an intention behind this.

which is if I want to start a clothing company, which I do, I need to signal to the market, these are things that I care about and maybe I can help. So if I'm looking like a scrub up on stage, no one is going to say like, you can't trust that guy. Look at him, what a mess, right? You don't want to get a personal trainer is out of shape. doesn't make sense. So you're not going to take personal branding advice from someone who's like got no personal brand, got no swag. The drip game is off.

You're not, so I have to work on that. Have to. Get to. Yeah. yes. And air quotes have to, yeah. I also feel like if you have good style, it's a conversation starter, which is great for an introvert. Someone can come talk to me about what I'm wearing. Someone can go talk to you about your glasses. Someone talk to you about the hat that you're wearing. And that is an opportunity to like say, I'm open to this without having to put yourself in a weird situation. Yeah. I...

I remember when I first started working with Ryan and I went to New York to get our headshots done at the office in SoHo. And at the time, the company was very small. We hadn't expanded to all the markets that we're in now. And all of the headshots on the website were real estate agents or the full-time staff. And they were all to New York, very New York. I'm from San Francisco. I'm a West Coast girl, like through and through.

But all of them were wearing suits and ties and button-ups and blazers. Not like the cool, sexy neon blazers that you wear, Candice, but like the typical blazers you think of. And I was like... headshot blazer. Yeah. The side angle like that. I didn't feel like that was me. Like I feel like the best clothing that I love is the clothing that makes me feel the most like me. And you know, Nikki, she's one of our amazing photographers at Sirhan. She...

was photographing me and she's like, so what are you going to wear? Cause I had like a top and like my black jeans and my black heels, but I hadn't decided on my jacket. And I was like, well, Nikki, like I have my black leather jacket and I kind of want to wear that, but I don't think it really fits the vibe. She's like, she's like, it. Like put it on, wear it. And now to this day, I think I'm still the only person with a headshot on that website that has a leather jacket, leather jackets and leather jacket energy and like the anti-authority, counterculture vibe, the rebellious vibe of it is just so...

Like me. And I was so close to not wearing the leather jacket for that moment, but I'm so glad that I did. And now it still feels like me, so until it doesn't feel like me, I'm gonna continue wearing it. Like wherever I can. I'm ready for you to get their face tat. Let's go. You know, you gotta go all the way. You're gonna wear the leather jacket. I have a lot of tattoos. I do. I don't know if our listeners know that.

Yeah, my whole back is tatted. I have a memorial for my mother and my aunt. They're Japanese-Americans. I have their names in hiragana. And then I have a star for my grandfather, a phoenix for my transformation that I've undergone, and then a scapula tattoo for when I was in nursing school. because the tattoo is next. Or a neck tattoo. Let's go. It was hard enough for my mom. Chicken. my goodness. We'll see. We'll see. my goodness.

Get a stamp trap right here somewhere where we can see it. Let's go We'll see if I do it. it has to be a full body. Yes, if it's not a full body Yes, I'm not gonna do it. So but challenge heard. We'll see if I said just one small step You know, have to do the full day just like one teardrop, you know, just some butterfly no, I'm just kidding

My mother's heart if I did that would say, man. All Chris, earlier, go ahead, Kat, do you have something? No, no, go ahead. I was gonna say earlier you mentioned that building a brand has a lot of correlations to sports and athletics. I'm always trying to make that correlation, but I know nothing about sports, but I see that. And actually the funny thing is my favorite clients to work with are athletes because I think it's because they have

amount of discipline, they're willing to put in the work. But anyways, I would love to, for you to share with our audience, like how you see the correlation between them and take that wherever makes sense for you. Let's try this. I'm going to freestyle. When I was talking about sports, you know, baseball players are super superstitious. They're the most superstitious people. they are.

Underwear from they never wash their underwear or something never wash the same exactly touch this do that drink this and you're like, this is crazy and but it actually turns out not to be crazy at all because every one of us has a ritual to prepare ourselves and We get into this state where people would call our flow state. So for them, that's their version of meditating Clearing their mind quieting the demons focusing on the goal the outcome projecting their mind into the future

positive future tense. That's what they want. And so they're all going through that. And so that's the sports part. Now, when it comes to branding in sports, this I've not talked about before. So let's see where this goes. Okay. right, you guys, I'll try and think on my feet here. I'm not a sports guy. I'm not a team sports guy. And so I always find it crazy that Americans and Europeans are crazy about their team. When they don't play and they have no stake in his game whatsoever.

They show up, some of them paint their face, some of them don't even wear shirts and they're body painted. They're screaming and yelling, they're buying box seats and they drag all kinds of other people into this crazy affair. What is this? So what sports teams have done is they've been able to tell a story. They say it's us versus everyone else. So here's who we are. And it's usually just identified by region. Like, are you...

from San Francisco, or you from New York, or you an LA person, and so that just happens to be your team. You inherit the team based on where you live. Now, depending on where you grow up, that might carry on with you, so you no longer live there. But it's there. And then what they do is they have songs, they sing their songs, they have their colors, they have their war paint, they have their mascots. And I think if we go back to like, where did branding come from? Where did branding come? Didn't come from, from farmers and ranchers.

It didn't come from European candlemakers. I think it comes from royalty. Like if you're a lord or lady of the land and you say, okay, they're conquerors and we're going to protect you. These are our colors. This is the family crest. Right. The coat of arms, the suit of arms. The coat of arms. Exactly. And so when you go on the field to literally do battle, we know it's us versus them literally from our armor and they're like, the banners. Let's go. We are going to go to war.

And whoever wins, well, their brand wins. So if you kind of take it into the modern context now, how do we deal with this brand? Well, first of all, who are we for? Who are we against more importantly? That's the thing that people are sometimes reluctant to say. We stand for this, but we don't know what you stand against. Stand against something first. By virtue then we know what you stand for. It's kind of like that. So it's also the enemy of my enemy is my friend. So it's not, okay, now we give them something.

We have to have a symbol to identify it's us. And there's a secret language. We're very kind of tribal and in our identity and trying to understand and belong to something, some kind of community. So we don't feel so alone. So this could be the tribe of weird introverts who do podcasts. You know, you know, you know, know, with face tattoos, you know, I don't know. Well, we'll have Candice come up with a logo design and then we'll go to a tattoo shop in LA.

then we'll have to explain to significant others what we did. But we'll document it and we'll galvanize have those ones that apparently only last for like a year and then they fade away. maybe. Hey. Yes. I guess on my podcast, Patrick Hamlin wrote a book about like tribal brands and understanding the rituals. And rituals make us know like who we are, like the ceremony. Like when you think about marriage, I do and I don't and

So death do us part and the breaking of the glass and all that's kind of, it's all ceremony to kind of bring us into the story, the narrative. And so I find that brands that have a cult like following do certain things. They invent a language. This is really important. They make you say different words. Okay. So if we look at brands that you love, okay. Like say, let's just say like Nike or Adidas, they're two different brands here at war with each other. Right?

They don't just call it like rubber, they call it adiprine. Or fly-knit for Nike. It's like, it's just, you know, it's fabric, man. Why do we gotta call it something? the same material. Yeah, it is. And everybody's got it now. I mean, I know it was innovative when they came out with it, but they want you to use this language. And so if you look at something very simple like Starbucks, Starbucks forces you or encourages you to use their secret language.

Think about it. I'm like, want a large. Aventi or Trenta or Grant, what? And you keep going through this, right? And so we know that if we invent a language and we encourage people to use it, they're enrolling themselves into the tribe. Because it clearly signals to other people, I'm part of the Starbucks tribe and you're not. Because you're not using the language. You see what I'm saying? And everyone wants to belong. That's right. And then we have our emblem. And what they do is they print that on things. So it's like,

Now outside of Starbucks, you can tell people you belong to that tribe. And so you have to give people a couple of things. You have to give them rituals. There are rituals. There's a secret language and there's customs and there's symbols to say we are this. There are colors that you adhere to. And so that starts to begin this tribe, this brand, following that you have. Language is so powerful. And I think

It's one thing that people overlook. it was extremely humbling for me earlier this year. I traveled to Japan for the first time where my mother is from and her family and how humbled I was to be in the train station and see everything in Japanese and everybody around me is speaking Japanese and I don't look like anybody there. And I'm just like lost and just, yeah, that I didn't, don't think I realized how powerful language was until I was in that situation where I wasn't the majority and I had to figure it out and I had to learn.

the 20 words or phrases that would get me by, like in my travels while I was there. But if I hadn't learned that, it would have just been me dependent on body language, which is helpful, but it's not everything. And Kat is an amazing copywriter. Words are her superpower. so for her to... I think that language, she just considers language all the time. And so to be in a situation where it's even more in depth, exploring what those words mean to you and how it connects people, I think is really cool.

Yeah, it was good to be a beginner. There's a chapter inside Ronald Baker's book, implementing value pricing. It's in the early parts of the book. And it's a quote from Werner Erhart, I believe. And the quote is, all transformation is linguistic. If you change the language, you change the culture. Super powerful stuff. So if we think about it, and I've explored this with my therapist before, and she asked me this question, what's your earliest childhood memory?

And how old were you? And I tell her, and it's usually around three years old. She goes, you know, I've asked a lot of people this, it's almost always around three. And it's really when you have enough vocabulary to describe what's going on. So I'm like, so my life doesn't exist before words. And she goes, no, it exists, but it's very soft. It's kind of blurry and it's just feelings and they're real and they're there, but you can't access them the way that you can once you develop language.

And it's so interesting to me, the concept of language is the invention that we have, that if I say a certain sequence of words in a certain tone, you have a shared experience with me. It's pretty wild. And so what happens to us is when we're, when we're experiencing something in our lives, we can describe it as torturous, empowering, inspirational, and then that locks the emotion that we feel to the experience itself. And so there is no memory without an emotion, without words.

They're all interconnected. So this is super empowering to me in that, you chose the words that describe the experience. And if you don't like it, it also means you could choose different words. You can experience a different thing. So objectively, something happens. But if 10 people are experiencing it, there's a high probability that no two people experience the exact same thing. Largely depends on their state, their emotional state, their way of looking at the world or lens.

and how they record things with words. And those three things are super powerful if you learn how to harness it as a tool. Yeah, I love that. Change your words, change your life. Exactly. One thing that I often talk with my clients about, because I'm working with clients who are moving up, they're increasing their price points, they're making more money, they're growing their teams. And a lot of clients, and myself included, at one point would say things like,

those rich people and you kind of alluded to that earlier in your talk, what you were talking about earlier, Those rich people, okay, must be nice to have all that stuff, must be nice to have all that money to make those choices. Wish that, know, like if I could do, if I had your money, I would do X, Y, and Z, right? But always kind of excluding yourself from that group of people who has money, who has power, who has options. And like one of the first things I work with my clients on is to stop saying that.

because you're then never going to attract the opportunities to have that because you're saying those people who I feel icky about and you wouldn't want to be the person who feels icky, right? So you're kind of repelling money by the language that you're using when you're describing a certain set of people. And so that's something I really think is super powerful in the words that you say about others and about money.

impacts the ability to create money and wealth in your life is words. I know. attitudes too. Or to your mother. Yeah. So Chris, I know earlier you had talked about how a lot of people will look at somebody's like journey when they're 10 years in or 20 years in and they'll try to replicate what they're doing and they'll not like reverse engineer it. One thing that we've noticed and the amazing guests we've had on and yourself included is wanting to understand

at this point in your career, and maybe contrast it to when you first started out in your career, how do you define, again, knowing the power of words, like how do you define a know when you're being successful, when you've achieved success for yourself by your own definition? Like what was that definition for you 20 years ago and what is it for you today? Hmm, that's a good question. I think success for each individual is kind of like this, this baton that you can pick up and you throw it.

And you can throw as far as you can throw it and say, okay, now you have to move yourself towards that. But once you get there, the game is you pick it up and you throw it again and just keep doing that. So when I'm in school, the baton is like get out of school, man. When you're done with school, it's like, one day I'd like to start a company. Okay. Once you start a company, like, what does that even mean? Well, it'd be great. I think if I could have three full-time employees, it's just random. just a number.

One feels like, whatever, anybody can do that. Two feels like you're onto something. Three feels like you legitimately can There's something there. Yeah. I remember saying to my wife, like, babe, we made it. We have a company. We have three employees that we pay health insurance for and dental and, you know, we're like adults. Very grown up. Yeah. But then you get to that part and you're like, well, let's get to $2 million in revenue. And then let's get to four and let's get to six. And then you just keep doing that. Or let's work with that client or let's win that award and just keep doing that.

I think that makes the whole thing fun. So people will say, you know, life is not the destination, it's the journey. And I really believe that as cliche as that might be. Those that love to play the game usually win really big. Those that love the result oftentimes never get there and don't know what to do with themselves once they get there. We see that very, very often in our work. It's just...

Like you were talking about earlier, growth versus fixed mindset. One of the other speakers and authors I really admire is Simon Sinek, and he talks about playing the infinite game. You'll never be disappointed. You'll never stop learning. You'll never stop growing. You'll still be satisfied once you've achieved those milestones, but you don't work your whole identity and meaning and purpose in life around that one success point. Like three employees, okay, I'm done. I'm ready to go on. Like what's the next life look like? Right? You just keep on going. in the last couple of years, I've learned something that

kind of surprised me about who it is I'm trying to serve. So I'm a designer. I went to school, I'm trying to help designers and you think what do designers need? They need more design help? Not really, they need help with business. So I spent the last eight or nine years teaching creative people how to run their business, sales, marketing, even branding strategy, that kind of stuff. And I was like, this is cool. This feels very fulfilling. And then I run to Neil's audience, his crowd of these business people. And I'm like,

I feel really weird and strange here in front of all these people. Because once again, I put myself into this position where like, who's that odd duck in this crowd, right? And I'm feeling it. But what's a really surprised me was the appetite that this particular audience had for design, for creativity, for stepping outside the box. I think Neil's the Pied Piper, so he brings a certain group of people. So I think, you know, people in finance, accounting, real estate, like come on, loan officers, what do they want to know about branding design?

Well, it turns out they want to know a lot. it caused me to rethink my business model. So we're not giving up on the designers and teaching them business, but I find like it's really fun for me to go back to this place where I get to talk about design, about branding, about style and things like that to what I would consider left brainers. So we started this mastermind, this coaching group for a hundred people. And the tagline that we wrote was helping left brainers think right. I love it. There's plays on words there, right? So it's whatever, however you want to interpret that.

And it's something I'm very excited about. So quite literally what I'm doing with my friends that are men who have zero sense of style, basically they have the GAP look all their lives, pretty generic. And I'm like, you want to go on this adventure with me? So I start sharing things about style and they start changing their style. We'll literally go on shopping trips together. It's a strange thing for straight heterosexual men to do, but that doesn't look good on you. You need to be a little bolder.

And literally other straight friends like try this, try that. I'm like, are we in a movie? Is the camera on right now? Cause this feels a little strange. Where's Ashton? Yeah. Right. And then we share these, we share these stories on, on Instagram and people are literally texting me, no, I would have flown in for that, bro. You gotta let me know what's going on. So it's gotten me to think, I want to do a two day personal branding workshop. I'm announcing it for the first time live here. What I think is going to happen is part of the workshop includes.

a shopping trip. Okay, so we take a before photo, you present and you speak without understanding of who your brand is or how you, with the tone of voice and the characteristics. That's the beginning. That's the baseline. Towards the of the day, you build a mood board, something that's very aspirational that pushes you outside of your comfort zone. And the lab fee is we're all going to go maybe vintage store shopping, or we're going to go to some boutiques. And maybe cameras will follow you around and you try stuff. I'm like, no, no, go, go crazier. Come on.

Let's go and then put that together and the next day with this new understanding of how to appear on camera, how to speak, how to hold yourself, your new outfit, your drip. And we record that and we're like, here's how you started. Here's where you're at. Continue on this adventure friend. So I think there's going to be a couple of guys who are going to be interested in this. We'll see.

way more than a couple. That's amazing. Way more. Don't sell yourself short. I think there's such a need for that to also partners who are about to sign their partner up for this. Honestly, yeah. Consider marketing to the female spouses and female partners and girlfriends. They'll just take the card. They already have access to the credit card anyway. I bought you this experience for Christmas, honey. It's really for your friends and also so we could look good together at dinner. Right. I'd take that. Yeah.

I love that. think that you're definitely filling a gap in the market because I've not heard of anything like that and people need it. So amazing. This is one of our favorite parts. It's just rapid fire. Anything top of mind. You just answer the question the best you can. Let me get ready for this. All right, let's go. Hand on buzzer. I'm ready. Okay. Childhood dream job. What was it? A skateboarder. Okay. Love it.

When you're on the go, you're traveling for work. What's your go-to meal? Probably something like grilled chicken with vegetables. Okay. He's on his ab game. Takis or hot trying. Not by the results. Takis or hot Cheetos. I don't know what any of those things are. Takis. You were in LA. You don't know what Takis are or hot Cheetos? Well, we know what gift we're sending you after this episode. Well, it's not going to help you get the abs.

But okay, what is the best non-curse word, one word insult?

Non curse word. Average. Just tell people your average. A hundred percent. Generic is another one. And you said that and you're like, don't be generic. What makes you nervous? Humans. Strangers in a crowded room. makes me really nervous. Heard that. What's your current fashion brand obsession?

Probably Louis Vuitton. Very nice. You can see the credit card bill. It's a business expense. I wish it were. It's not. No, it's not. No, my CPA friends say, Chris, no, it's Definitely not. All right. All right. So I'm at the airport all the time and I have a go-to airport fit. Do you have an airport fit? Is there something you always wear when you fly? Okay, what's that? 100%. Yes. Love it.

It's usually a dual layered drop crotch trainer pant, know, track pant. Yep. It's super comfortable shoes that you can literally kick and the shoe will fly off in case you to go do that. And then probably two layers. It something with pockets and a zipper because when you carry passports and phone and money, they tend to fall down the cracks. So I need to know, I could rest a lot easier if I dropped them in there. And airplanes are crazy. They can be super cold or super hot. You got to be ready for both.

So something zip up hoodie, you know, with long sleeves. That's the go to with my man purse. Man purse just to finish off to say I don't look like some schlub. Louis Vuitton man purse. course. Merger, Abloh, Louis Vuitton. We love it. There we go. You got it. So Kat shares your love for comic books. She's obsessed with Marvel. If you were a superhero, what would your superpower be?

Hmm. You know, as a kid, I wanted to be invisible. I know that's not a good power because that deals with my introversion. Like I'm feeling super awkward. You can't see me. That would my answer as a kid. I don't know what my superpower would be right now, but I feel like my real life superpower is my, it's my mouth. I want to be able to communicate and connect with people. And it's, it's through this. It used to be my hands, right? Sometimes my wife would grab me and she'd kiss me like really like aggressively.

Hold on, hold on, babe. Don't damage the goods. I need to ensure that from Christie's like easy there. looks at me, please. Hilarious. I love it. Well, thank you so much, Chris. We really appreciate having you on. We appreciate your time. Thanks for joining us on Not Nice Clever. Remember to follow Not Nice Clever wherever you listen to audio. And if you haven't already, drop that five star review. Share your takeaways. Tell us your story.

We love to hear it. Signing off, you're not so nice, but so clever, besties that mean business. See you soon.