Not Nice. Clever.

How to Pitch Media and Get Noticed: PR Tips For Entrepreneurs

• Kat Torre and Candice Carcioppolo • Episode 232

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Ready to boost your brand’s visibility without draining your budget? In this episode of Not Nice. Clever, we’re joined by Justin Goldstein, an award-winning PR pro, to spill the tea on how entrepreneurs like YOU can master public relations.

Justin shares golden nuggets on media outreach, crafting pitches that get noticed, and making the most of your publicity efforts. He reveals why a strategic approach to PR is a game-changer, how to leverage your authentic founder's story, and the right time to bring in a PR professional to amplify your impact. Plus, we dive into how to measure success and make past media mentions work for you!

Stay tuned until the end for rapid-fire questions where Justin gives us a peek into his world with witty, insightful answers you won’t want to miss.

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Hi, I'm Kat, marketer turned brand storyteller. And I'm Candice, educator turned entrepreneur. And you're listening to Not Nice, Clever. As CEOs and leaders, it's your job to always have the answers. But sometimes you need a little help. Leverage, if you will. We get it. This is the place for you. So wherever you're listening, 530 AM Club at the gym, on your way to your next meeting or putting out today's fire, let's get into it.

Today we're joined by Justin Goldstein, an award-winning PR pro and the mastermind behind PR 73, an agency all about building trust and driving growth for brands. With experience in the New York media scene and creating campaigns for heavyweights like Uber and Best Buy under his belt, Justin knows how to get brands noticed in all the right ways. We're talking to Justin today about how entrepreneurs can use PR to gain visibility, how to pitch the local news outlets,

and why you should think past the placement. So get ready for some fresh insights and practical tips from a true industry trailblazer. Well, thank you for joining us, Justin. We're really excited to have you on here and introduce you to our clever crew today. Your expertise is something that is super valuable, but we often find is something that seems really unapproachable for people who don't have.

thousands of dollars per month to invest in PR. So before we dive into all of that good stuff, we'd just love to hear how you actually got into your field of expertise. Origin stories are sometimes really surprising when it comes to entrepreneurs. So we'd love for you to share that with us. Well, thanks so much for having me today. Yeah. So I started my career actually not right out of college. I had decided to go get my MBA.

at my undergrad university, especially because at that time it was right after the 08 economic collapse and wasn't really sure what was going to happen. So I was like, all right, let me go get another degree and spend more money to hopefully make money. So I decided to do that and landed sort of a part time job while I was looking for work and started off at a very small firm that focused a lot on TV and radio press. And then I moved off to a larger firm that was more global that focused on

B2B and technology clients then started my firm PR 73 about five and a half years ago. But I was a public relations major undergrad. I think I, be honest, I don't really know what the curriculums are like these days, but back then Entourage was still on TV and you know, lot of the conversation was around sort of like the LA PR scene where it was a bit more celebrity driven and the excitement around that. But I think once you actually get into the field, you learn that it's not

that it's, you know, there's a lot of different aspects of PR than just, you know, press events and dinners and all that good stuff. So it was a big wake up call when I first started out, I'd say. So it's not you were not like Jeremy Piven on Entourage is what you're saying. That was not your life. Especially when I first started out. I was like the underling under his underling, whoever that would have been at the time. But the sub underling. Yeah, no.

No, I was not. you know, I think that some of that exists on the agent side, talent agency side, but for and it does exist somewhat in PR. But, you know, it's beyond the sort of, you know, I remember that scene in Entourage. I don't know how many of your listeners have watched it or if you guys watch it, but where Jeremy Piven's character shows up in the first season to a beach house to basically go fight off another talent agent that's trying to steal his main client.

man. Which that scene for whatever reason is burning to my brain. you know, it's not that 24-7 excitement per se. There's a lot of exciting work that goes into it, but there's a lot of grunt work that gets you to the excitement I learned in my first job especially. And so, you know, given that we're not living in the entourage era anymore and that that's not very approachable to a lot of folks that are starting out and building their brands and amplifying their businesses, what would you say are some steps that

small businesses or individual entrepreneurs can take to start to get noticed, even if they don't have the 5,000 to 10,000 a month PR budget? What are some more cost-effective options would you recommend? I think any small business really should consider what is going to give them the most immediate ROI in their time and their effort because as a small business, oftentimes you don't have necessarily a 40 to 50 person staff, which means that

you don't have the time yourself to do a lot of what goes into PR. So you have to kind of think about what is the best use of my time and what's going to aid my overall marketing PR and sales business development mix. And I think the easiest thing that you can do, there's two easy things you can do. One is media outreach. And the other is organic social content creation, which does somewhat fall under the public relations bucket because of the messaging aspect to that.

And the reason I say that is because if you're getting some quick wins on media placements that can feed into your social effort and your sales development pipeline where you're going through your outbound prospecting stage or having conversations with prospects and you're slotting media placements into those conversations or into the post that you're looking to develop already. So it's a quick and easy way to get a little bit of a boost into your overall business development effort. And then for the organic social part of it, you're obviously by the nature of it being organic.

not spending money on the post themselves. And as you start to fine tune what your channel or what your audience is across different channels are engaging with, you can start to build a little bit of an audience and drill into that audience to hopefully generate leads from that. So yeah, if I were a small business that was starting out a PR program, that's likely where I would focus. I just know that the clever crew is listening and they're like, okay, we've heard people say how important this is before, right? We understand.

that social media is important, but is there anything quantifiable or bite-sized nugget that you can give them because they want to know things like, am I supposed to post every day? What do I talk about in my posts? How do I position myself as an expert if I'm new? Like, what are some tips that you can give them that feel like they could take action today? It's a great question. I can't...

give a quantifiable number in terms of how much organic social has helped to boost someone's bottom line. But what I can tell you is that... love that you said that because we're like, there's not a magic number. you. No, there is no magic. There's not. And oftentimes it's hard to tie a business result from a bottom line perspective to PR, social, whatever it is. Inside here, we all know that. What I will say though is there are ways to quantify

the ways in which social or let's say media coverage is supporting the overall business development work that a business is doing. And I think one of the ways to do that is creating metrics for how often the work is being used and the different channels where it's being used. Right. So for a media placement, let's take that as an example. You can look at how many times that placement used for newsletter distribution. How many times was it used to create social posts? How many posts were

that was that link to coverage included in things like that that are quantifiable in terms of their use rate. And also, you know, for something like a newsletter, you could look at response rate of did they click on the media link in the newsletter? Right. So I think there's ways to track engagement and basically say to yourself, OK, this is working to get people in the door and keep them here. If they're not converting, it's because we're not doing something else on the back end, whether it's a messaging thing, whether it's

developing our website to be more effective, whatever it might be, we have to do something on the back end to now get them to the next step of actually purchasing. And I think that's where PR marketing needs to be evaluated the most, which is, is it doing a good job of bringing someone to you to then basically carry the torch and get them to buy? And the first thing that you had mentioned was media outreach. So what are some good first steps to take? Because I think one thing that we see is that

you know, our clients and those in our clever crew, they're nervous to put themselves out there or they don't even really know. Like they're like, people don't even read newspapers anymore. Why would I go and speak to journalists or how do I, you know, how do I have something to offer that could be newsworthy? So what would be some initial kind of recommendations or refrains you would offer? Yes. So I know Ryan Serhan, who we all know very well here, it's actually stress one tactic that I

agree with among many other tactics that he talks about is start locally. I think going to your local, let's say business journals or TV stations or widely read newspapers is a good way to start because there's a little bit less pressure involved than say talking to the Wall Street Journal right off the pat, which can be a little intimidating. It's not to say you can't do it. It's just that it's a way to kind of get some warmups and still get very valuable coverage out of it.

In terms of the value, think it goes back to what we just discussed, which is that it helps, I would say, mostly for top and middle of funnel business development. So top of funnel meaning trying to go to prospects and saying, hey, I was just featured talking about XYZ, thought you'd want to check it out, get them into your funnel. Middle of the funnel is once you start to have those conversations, how can you help to push them along using the media coverage itself? So it might be, hey, I really enjoyed our conversation last week.

You know, it's actually right right after our conversation. I was in the Wall Street Journal talking about this. You I thought you'd enjoy the read and perhaps it can inform a future conversation, something like that to help keep them engaged with you. And then the bottom of the funnel is up to you to close them. But I think that's the value there is like sometimes I think as business owners, we run out of gas in terms of what we can say to revive or continue conversations. And that's an easy way to make your life easier where it's a shareable asset. It's something somebody can read. It's educational, informative.

And it just helps to keep those conversations going. does a pitch sound like for a small business owner who is doing this for the first time and they are doing it themselves? They want to be in the local news on a segment. What does that sound like or look like or what process would you recommend? It really depends on what they're pitching. But I think especially for local news, it has to be something more informative.

there's much less of a chance that local news is going to, it's just going to cover that company and say, this product is amazing. Go buy it. There are certain, there are certain outlets that might do that, but ultimately if you're pitching yourself or the business as an expert in the industry you're talking about, or the piece of news that's trending, let's say, you're going to have much more success. And so I, one thing that's worked for me in terms of getting a reporter's attention is to have a subject line that says new voice on XYZ topic.

So it could be new voice on technology, new voice on gender rights, new voice on whatever. And then I think that signals to a reporter like, oh, like I've been using the same source over and over again. Maybe I should think of using somebody else, but it also, you know, signals to the reporter like, oh, this is a topic if I haven't been covering it already, I should be, or if I have been, I should continue doing it. So I'm to, I'm intrigued and I'm going to read more. And that's 70 to 80 % of the battle is just getting them to open their email and

read what you have to say. So Justin, another like cliche that I Candice has heard, I've heard is that any publicity is good publicity. And this ties into, you know, like what we see, and when we hear clients asking, you know, how much is sharing too much on organic social, right? You want to be personable, but still be seen as professional. So from your perspective, is any publicity good publicity or you know, should

entrepreneurs be discerning in playing it safe on certain stances? How would you, how do you advise your clients on that? I do not subscribe to the idea that all publicity is good publicity. All publicity is great for getting attention, but not necessarily for the long-term health of your brand and your business. And it also comes down to, think, how much, solidified your brand is that it could withstand a certain amount of negative press, you know?

You also have to balance sort of where you're at as a person and where you are at with your business. Meaning, I think Elon Musk is a great example. So if you look at Elon Musk, he, at least in my opinion, he clearly values spending his time more on political causes and cultural causes than he does the success of his staff and companies.

That's just my opinion. And clearly, they're still successful, even with all of that involved. I mean, look at Tesla right now, right? I mean, people are not say every single owner, but there are many owners of Teslas now that are trading them in that don't want to buy a future Tesla because of the stance that he's taking now. Elon Musk is potentially going to be a trillionaire in 10 years, so he doesn't necessarily need to care and can cash out a stock and be fine. But that's Elon Musk.

Right. And so you got to realize 99 percent of the time you're not going to be Elon Musk and not taking too hard of a stance and putting yourself out there, not even putting yourself out there, but just not doing so in a strategic way and also finding a purpose behind it for the business that you're representing. It could have a detrimental effect that you may not be able to recover from no matter how much crisis PR or persuasion work you put into it. So.

You know, I'm wondering too, because I was watching Instagram Reel the other day, and obviously we're recording this during a very interesting time in the U.S. here. It's early November. It's actually Election Day today at the time of us recording. And I saw this Instagram Reel where this really well-known pop star who has a lot of influence over Gen Z and Gen Off, I think Gen Off is too young to vote in this election, but she made a political statement in favor of one candidate.

And then I'm curious whenever I see that, because art is always historically political. It has been for centuries. But then I go to the comments section, I see a lot of people say, like, you know, just saying I didn't come here for your politics or, you know, a lot of like, but then people admiring her for making the statement and then others, you know, saying, I'm just here for the music, like, I don't want to hear your politics. So I'm curious on your take, you know.

What are the things to keep in mind before making a statement like that? Or have you seen a larger shift in PR where people are being more transparent and kind of blending their beliefs with their business too? Yeah. So to answer the latter part of your question, I don't think there's ever going to be a time in which a PR practitioner is going to advise that practically someone take a stance on a political topic or an election.

I think probably what you're seeing more are instances of people not caring what their PR person says. Yeah. And that's OK. But I think that goes back to that conversation of what do you value more? You know, and if it's your cause and your mission and that's a personal mission to you, then listen, I was actually having this thought a few months ago as we were navigating the latter part of the election cycle.

You know, if that instance happened to me where a client was like, what do I do? I'd be like, you know what? I'm going to tell you what you should do from a business perspective, but you got to do you and you got to do what makes you feel happy and satisfied. And if that means you take, wouldn't say it this way, of course, but if that means potentially taking your business and us not working together anymore, but you feel as a person, you did the right thing. You need to go and do that if that's what you value most. But you know, what I also tell clients is the key thing to keep in mind is that

you're speaking from multiple parties when you speak, whether it's within business speech or your own individual ideas, right? So you're talking, you're representing your business, you're representing your family, your friends, everything you say traces back to multiple aspects of your life. And if you're ready to take a potential positive or negative impact on that, that could shift those key ingredients of how you live your life on a daily basis, you gotta go for it. But if you're not, don't do it.

because it's not worth it. It always goes back to the intention, right? Like that's something we talk a lot about, like whatever you want to do, whatever strategy you want to pursue, just making sure you're clear on your intention and the impact that it'll have. 100%. I think you've you summed it up very nicely. It's it's about your intention and your value in terms of what do you value most in your life? And if your answer is your business, you got to take a step back. I think it'd be a little bit more strategic.

Again, if it's not your business and it's more about taking a stand and trying to create a groundswell support for that stand, then you have to just be ready for the rest of your business. Because like I said earlier, especially if you've got a far out there or a far out opinion that isn't mainstream, there's no amount of crisis PR that's going to solve for that. You just have to hope it goes away. Fingers crossed. So we talk a lot here about how important it is to...

kind of share the story of who you are. And specifically, a lot of people call it your founder's story, right? Like how you got started in this field, in this industry. Do you have any tips on how people can share their founder's story in a way where it feels more natural and not contrived? Like, you know, in 1999, I got started with like, no one wants to hear that story.

necessarily in that manner? Is there like a way to use your founder story that feels more authentic? I think likely starting with your why would be a good anchor. You know, a lot of business owners start companies not necessarily just to make money. It's because there was an impetus for doing so. You know, for me personally, for example,

A large portion of why I started my business was to build a legacy that I could pass down to my family, my two kids, and maybe one day they'll run with it and run the company, who knows. But that was a big part for me, that it was something I created that was my own that I could pass down to my kids. And so I think starting from there is a really good approach.

The other thing I would say is I think a lot of content that's resonating on social right now is natural sort of in the moment in nature content. So instead of like sitting at your laptop talking into a camera and explaining your founder story is maybe going outside holding your phone like this and it's not perfect. Right. But you're still talking in the moment. And the third thing I would say is maybe there's something around like breaking or trending news that relates to your founder story that you could use as a leverage to talk about your story.

So I think it's just getting a little bit more tactic driven and to your point, not having it feel so boiler pleady, but also visually trying to tell that story in a way that feels natural that people can connect with as if like, you for example, I was in my backyard filming content the other day. It's like, maybe if I'm walking in my backyard, holding my phone like this, somebody could feel like they're with me in the backyard walking and having that conversation. So.

Yeah, I think there's different ways that it's not only the type of content that you put out there, but it's the way in which you actually present it on camera or in writing, whatever it might be that helps to, you know, garner success. The thing that I love about that tip is that it does not require a production crew. does not require all the equipment. That's like a famous, you know, barrier that we hear. It's like, well, it doesn't look perfect. The production value isn't on point. And really people don't want perfect. They don't want highly produced. They don't trust that the SAN age, right? They want like

real. They want something that they can touch. I was just going to say, I mean, think there's still a place for more produced content for sure. It just has to be the right place and the right type of venue for it. I love what you shared about like kind of continuing a conversation that's maybe already happening in culture at the moment, something timely where you can say, hey, this story is happening and that's in some way related to why I started this or why this matters to me, why I do what I do. And then you can use that as a jumping off point.

So it feels more conversational than just like, let me tell you about Candace. It's like, actually this thing happened and it reminded me of XYZ. And I feel like that feels conversational instead of just look at me. hundred percent. You know, it's one thing. I don't know if it was a recommendation that came from you because you did a PR workshop for us, you know, several months ago for, the sell it, community that Candace and I are part of. And maybe it was recognition for me, right? I'd gotten it from somewhere else, but.

turning on Google news alerts and looking and following like trending stories for specific keywords. I know that that's one way that I really leverage being able to talk about the things that are specific to my personal brand that matter to me and tie it to a larger landscape. So one, was that a tip that I got from you and I completely forgot? And two, is that something that you see as valuable for clients looking to leverage? I'm gonna be honest, you...

maybe didn't get it for me because it's pretty commonly suggested topic, but I guess I'll take credit for it. No, I do suggest doing that. One other thing that small businesses with a little bit of budget could do is invest in a media monitoring platform like Scisions out there, MuckRack. If you Google it, you'll learn more. But those are platforms where you can create an allure for your company that not only provides links to your name being mentioned, but gives an analysis of like

how many people talked about your company on social, where it was mentioned in the media, what the sentiment of the media coverage was. Granted, it's all powered by AI, so some of it's great, some of it's not, but it goes a little bit more into detail than just an alert, I'd say. I know we've got a lot of real estate and mortgage professionals in our clever crew, and so I think...

putting on an alert like that for your larger brokerage brand, as well as your name and your brand too, could be really helpful because it's positive associations or guilt by association sometimes, right? If a larger company you're associated with is picking up some negative press, you're going to inevitably be associated with that too. So it's good to be proactive and then be aware of that. 100%. Yeah.

I also would caution getting too wrapped into it where you're checking every day because then it becomes a burden in the sense that if you go, let's say a week without getting a mention, you start to feel a little less confident. find clients get into that rhythm. So I wouldn't obsess over it, but it's definitely something good to have just to make sure that you're aware of what kind of conversations you're being involved with. When do you think is the right time?

for a small business to work with someone like you, Justin, what are some questions they can ask themselves to see if it's time for them to make that next move?

So I think the first part is how much of a burden is doing it yourself? That's the biggest question. And if you understand and believe in the power of PR, you have to ask yourself, I'm running a business every day. I have, let's say, limited staff. Do I have the capacity to manage this internally? And if the answer is no, outsourcing it is going to be the best way to go, of course. I'm a little biased, but it's the truth.

You know, the second thing I would say is going back to a point that I was making earlier. Do you feel as though you need more ammo to close business? That's the second part. Because if you don't have those assets and that ammo to be able to convert, that's where PR can easily slide in again, starting off with, let's say, media outreach and social content to help to boost your ability to get to the bottom of the funnel and convert leads.

Those are the two questions, honestly, I would ask. you know, also, if you feel like you could do it yourself, the question is, do you feel confident in your abilities? Are you having success? Do you feel nervous doing it yourself? Because you might think you know how to do it, but that's why there are experts out there that do it every day. you know, I think the third thing is how much experience do you really have doing it? How confident are you that you're doing it the right way? So I think it comes down to time, confidence and resources. And if you're

Xing out those three, call me. Love it. And I know there's someone listening who's like, I'm just a normal person. I'm not a celebrity. Do I deserve PR? Is PR still for me? 100%. Entertainment PR is its own bucket. And there are multiple buckets of PR. There's education, nonprofit, B2B, B2C, tech. There's so many different

verticals at which PR plays. So no, you do not have to be famous or want to be famous to do PR. You just have to have the interest, the need and also the capacity to make use of it too. Because I tell clients all the time, it's like you could have the best, let's say media placements in the world, but if you don't have a system to actually leverage them, that's where we got to work first is to set up that system so that you're actually being able to put it through a process.

and proactively use the work that we're doing to your benefit rather than just relying on it to produce results for you. Can you give us an example of what that system might look like? obviously not a whole system, but can you give us an example? Well, the easiest thing I'd say is if you have a CRM, the first thing we have to do is set up the CRM to make sure that it can actually be, to make sure that can actually leverage media placements, right? So the first thing I would do is make sure that we're setting up email sequences

that have mentions of media placements in them so that it's automated and they can do it themselves. And we don't even necessarily have to step in beyond the sequence templates and setting up the sequences for the first time. The second thing is, do you have a newsletter? And if the answer is yes, we have to figure out, okay, what's your platform? Is it MailChimp? Is it something else? Is it HubSpot? And then figuring out a way to start embedding, a process for embedding media placements into the newsletter that's actually being distributed. So,

I think it's kind of like working with the channels that you have, looking at existing channels that are out there that we can start to build on, and then coming up with a process and an actual execution point to start putting all those assets into the universe. This comes to mind a phrase that I do know I heard from you was about thinking past the placement. Yes, that is Yes, OK, perfect.

you could get featured in Forbes, in the Wall Street Journal, in the New York Times, but because of how vicious and fast-paced the news cycle is, it's gone in a New York minute. so thinking past that and saying that this one piece of placement gets you future business, and it's up to you to leverage that. And that stuck with me, even from when you first shared it. So I think, to your point of having a system,

Engaging your CRM your newsletter. We preach the power of newsletter and the ROI on email as compared to paid advertising as compared to a lot of other channels. I think that's really important for the clever crew to keep in mind like Here's a question how? What if I got featured like months ago or years ago? Is it okay for me to? Reshare that like how old is too old or is that yeah, that like a myth in my mind?

So I literally just had this conversation with a client right before we got right before we can I guess and not not that far back but it might have been media placements from several months ago and I think the easiest way you can do that is to say hey hey team like here was my perspective back in February on XYZ topic. I actually talked about it in this article linked to the article and say

Now here's my perspective on where we are now. And then there's three or four paragraphs on that. And then you can reuse that a million times over. That is so good because that builds on prior success and it shows your evolution. It shows your innovation. I'm also going to be writing that down. give me a moment here. Awesome. My past perspective. Literally. Hey, if it leads to something great. We just wanted an hour of private consulting,

Or a way for people to connect with you like that they can get some ongoing advice. Yeah, you can go to www.pr73.com or email me directly at Justin at PR 73.com or Justin Goldstein PR 73 on LinkedIn to chat. Yeah, and we'll drop all of those in the show notes for you so you can grab them awesome and connect with Justin and you don't have to be famous to connect with him.

All right, so getting into rapid fire. No wrong answer is just the first thing that comes to mind. Justin, what was one of your childhood nicknames? What was one of my childhood? God, I can't believe I'm saying this, my grandma used to call me Rossy Tossy because my middle name is Ross. Rossy Tossy is so cute. All right. What's your go-to lazy dinner when you've just had a day and all the things are on fire? I'm...

possibly considering doing that tonight. Pizza or chicken parm? Oh, yeah. Pizza is a popular one. Oh, and fro-yo, frozen yogurt. See, I love fro-yo too, but usually if I've had a day, I don't want to go get it. Yeah. I mean, a lot of places are new grades now though. That's true. But then it gets stupid. It's like $20. good. For like a little fro-yo and you're like, Yeah, it's ridiculous. But I've done it once, sadly.

All right, what is your best non curse word? One word insult. So for example, mine is moron. Like don't be a moron. Candace's Abuelita is she calls people a crumb. She's like, you crumb. Moron is probably mine. Moron. That's good.

Yeah, we talked a lot about celebrities today. Who is your celebrity crush? Well, back in the day was Megan Fox. I feel like as we get older, it's like less you start to think about like when the past was your crush and then you're like, Oh, wait, right. That doesn't work. Yes. I mean, Britney Spears is an obvious one. Right. It doesn't work anymore. Let's just do Dua Lipa.

She's pretty. That's classic. That's actually who Ryan said on our... I know, that. Yeah, now I'm remembering I heard that in the episode. Yeah. I mean, there's definitely another one out there, but I'm struggling also because I'm in my home office today and my wife is downstairs. So perhaps I'm consciously not thinking Trying to be on point. What was the last thing you bought online? Last thing...

I haven't actually bought some online a while, but I am intending on getting a grip strengthener, which I know it sounds really weird, but I feel like as I get older and I'm typing more, I just need like something to kind of make sure my grip is tight, especially for business handshakes and things like that. So that is what I'm looking into next. I'm going to write that on my list. I mean, strong business handshakes. no, I'm sorry. The last thing I probably bought was my ring light. there we go. There you go.

so can prep for the podcast. Love it. All right. So our clever crew knows Candice has an obsession with always being at the airport. So our question for you is what's your airport arrival time? Is it two hours before boarding or two minutes? Two hours. Okay. Excellent. Perfect. And always taking the 6 a.m. flight if I can swing it. 6 a.m. flight? sounds torturous. Life is so much easier. It sucks getting up by... Wait, you're in New York, right?

Yeah, the traffic I get it like you got to get there early. Yeah, it's not even that it's just it's the issues with the planes like I'd rather just know I'm like one of the first flights out. I don't have to worry as much about delays. That's why the later flights take the hit for delays. Yeah, it's worth it to get up early. In my opinion, it's worth it. The return flight doing that is way worse than the going their flight, but it's worth it. That's true after you're exhausted and I'm

All right, and one of my obsessions in life is astrology. So Justin, what's your sign? And if you don't know your sign, what's your birthday? I'm a cancer. okay. Like Ryan. Interesting. July cancer or June cancer? June. right, so you got some Gemini leanings too. Okay, cool. So yeah, cancer traits, I suppose. There we go. Still waters run deep with you guys. Yeah, exactly.

Thank you so much for your time today, Justin. really appreciate it. will link all of your contact information in our show notes and thank you for our private consulting session that we got to you. You are welcome. Thanks for joining us on Not Nice, Clever. Remember to follow Not Nice, Clever wherever you listen to audio. And if you haven't already, drop that five star review. Share your takeaways. Tell us your story. We love to hear it. Signing off, you're not so nice, but so clever besties that mean business.

See you soon.


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Candice Carioppolo

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Kat Torre

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