Humanizing Your Personal Brand With Justin Schuman

If you’ve ever been told to “just be yourself” online and thought, cool but... who even is that?—you are going to love this episode.

This week, we’re joined by the wildly magnetic Justin Schuman—Broadway star turned brand coach and authenticity whisperer who’s on a mission to humanize your personal brand and help you show up as you, not just a curated version of you. Did we mention human is in his last name?

In this conversation, we go beyond the buzzwords and break down what authenticity actually looks like in real life and online. Justin shares how uncovering who you are (and how you want to show up) is the real work behind building a brand that connects—and why your “unpolished,” in-progress self is often the most powerful thing you can share.

So if you've been overthinking your content, or why you even need a personal brand, you will not want to miss this conversation!

Show Notes: 

Follow Justin On Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/justinschumanofficial

Watch Justin's TEDx Talk: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_CNVtn26zqQ

Work With Justin: https://s5r90n1prqe.typeform.com/to/YHO5Pp7f?utm_source=stan&typeform-source=stan.store

🏁 Connect With Us On Instagram!

• Not Nice Clever
• Candice Carcioppolo
• Kat Torre

📣 Amplify by Not Nice. Clever. is the ace up your sleeve. It's a hands on, workshop style delivery full of replicable frameworks, and actionable strategies that you team can put in place right away.

Find out more HERE.

🎙 Book Kat and Candice to speak at your next event, summit or workshop HERE

Transcript

Today's guest is not only a branding coach, he's also a Broadway star, a content wizard, and he is the most unapologetically human, human that I've seen on TikTok. Um, in addition to that, iTalk, his LinkedIn profile. He's a storyteller and authenticity coach. And you know, Kat and I are all about showing up as your authentic self.


So we are so honored to have Justin Schumann with us today. Thank you so much for having me. I've never been called a wizard before, so there's a first time for everything. There you go. We love that for you. Yeah, thank you. I did. I had not previously identified as a wizard, but honestly, but now flexible.


Yeah. I'm fluid. Let's go. Well, we are, um, thrilled to have you here. I wanna talk to you a little bit about something that Kat and I talk to the clever crew about all the time, which is. Showing up as your authentic self. I think for our audience, it can often feel like a buzzword. Authenticity is a buzzword.


It feels like. How can they be more of who they are? They are being who they are already. So what do we mean when we say we want you to be yourself? Can you dig into that a little bit more? Yeah. I think there's a bit of an assumption there. Uh, this notion that they. Are already being who they are, because I think my belief at this point after years of doing this is, no they're not.


And that's not their fault. The thing that you said, the way that you introduced it was interesting because authenticity is a buzzword. This amplification of being who they are. It's very difficult to amplify something that you can't nail down in the first place. And so that's how I kind of got into all of this.


Thing. I never wanted to be a content wizard, although I will happily accept the title. I started creating content and people kept telling me, I don't know how to do this. I don't know what content to create, and I didn't really know what the problem was. So I took a few meetings with people and I realized it has nothing to do with content.


You just don't know who to be because you don't know who you are. And social feels like this crazy choice to make this very public being of self through the lens of. The packaging up of your stories and your life to put yourself on display for potential perception and judgment. So for the people listening to the podcast, I think giving yourself permission that like if you feel like if you were to receive the advice, be yourself, you'd have literally no idea who that person was referring to internally by giving you that advice.


Great place to start and I will Shamelessly blog, I gave a TEDx talk in 2022 called The Practice. Of being yourself, and I really think that's all any of us are trying to do. And potentially, instead of asking, who am I? Who am I? Which is the next logical question one might ask, right? I just offered the idea of asking how, how might I go about doing this?


How do I feel about this? How do I envision a scenario like this would. Allow me to execute my, the being of myself in the sense that it's just easier to step into imagining what you might do than who you might be. And so I agree with you entirely. I think authenticity is a buzzword until we define it individually for ourselves.


And, and of course I'm happy to elaborate or shut the fuck up, but, um, it's been my literal life for the last three years, so it's, it's hard for me to contain that, you know? Yes. So. If I reached out to you on LinkedIn and I said, Hey, I want to hire you as an authenticity coach, session one, what does that look like?


What are we doing? I probably have a lot of questions for you. I'd have you fill out an intake form so I could just get a basic download of who you are, and I would look to see if you have any social presence already, because again, not to conflate the two, but. The way we present ourselves digitally tells me a lot about a person because I like to imagine cool.


If I was to meet you digital Candace, who do I imagine you to be? So that when we do jump on Zoom very quickly, nearly instantaneously, I can sense where that disconnect is because I am very grateful. But the content I've created has built. They compassionately unload on me immediately. And so that combined with me just being able to read people very fast.


Mm-hmm. The gap between who you're being publicly and who you probably are is just so clear to me. So I wanna, I wouldn't wanna lead you there immediately. I'd wanna ask a bunch of questions, but I'm also not one of those people that's like. You'll come to it in your own time because I do think I have answers in that radio voice, in that radio voice.


I do feel I have answers for people, so I like, it's a fair amount of consulting too, because sometimes you do just want the answer. You do just want the clarity. I. So it's a fine line, but session one's a lot of question asking and probably reflecting a few things back at you that you're like, oh fuck.


I'm like, mm-hmm, mm-hmm. You're welcome. That's some good stuff, and you're welcome. A lot of, oh fuck moments when you're trying to discover who you are and who you wanna be. Mm-hmm. They're good. They're good. They're hard. They're good. We need them. So y'all didn't hear this part, but right before we started recording I told Justin that he and I had been friends since 2020.


Basically, I've been following him on TikTok for many years and just silently taking him all in, he's brought me so much joy, especially during times when I was just like, oof, how am I gonna power through this moment? Um, and he's just always there, like inspiring, motivating. Feel, and you literally feel like a friend.


And that's why we're talking to you about social media because Justin doesn't know the impact that he's had on my life and my career. And I've probably never even commented I'm terrible. I'm sorry, but I've been following and I've been watching and so. For those of you listening in the clever crew right now, know that you are impacting people, whether or not they are taking the time to hit, like whether or not they're taking the time to comment.


Um, you know, I think 2024 was the first time we ever emailed Justin. 20, 24, 4 years after I started, I. Following. Yeah, and I'll say two things to that. One. First of all, no one has taken me all in in quite a moment, so I really appreciate that we share that Candace and two, um, I think, okay. There it is. It hit.


We love it. You took show. Yeah. I, you, it was like not ideal. You are ideal as a guest on this show, sir. I just, just have to say, presented itself like monsters, zinc style and to not go through, we would've been disappointed had you not walked through. You'll have to watch the video on this one because the silence please.


You have to see the look anyways. Was everything you needed. Yeah. We don't have poker faces here. And I can give you whatever face I need. I, um, I think the second part too though, is I tell this to clients a lot, and I tell this to, to followers as well. It's the, it's the lurkers, right? Mm-hmm. That it's not about the views because you don't need a video to get a million views to one, not only have impact on people, but two, if you do run a business or you want to have some sort of, uh, create some sort of leverage with an online presence, you need the one person who can reach out to you, the one opportunity that will change your next day, your next week, your life.


And that video could get 300 views. Mm-hmm. So it's not about the views, which is also why it also doesn't matter that you show up as this perfect self that you think you're supposed to, because it's not about the fucking views. And additionally, whether it's the people with the money who are gonna hire you or the people with the opportunity who are gonna present it to you, they don't always have time to comment or they just might not be that kind of person.


But don't mistake a lack or dearth of engagement for a lack of impact. I love that you used the word dearth. Okay. I'm like, I'm also just trying to do something else though, which I always, and I'm like, am I an asshole or am I like really kind? Because I will typically say three synonyms for a word. Okay.


A lack, a dearth, an absence as if to say, in case you didn't get two of them, here's one. I don't know when I started doing that, but I love that you called me out on it. So thanks, KA. I, I love it. I appreciate language. It shapes our reality and words have power. Words have such highly underrated, I'm a words boy.


Not a math. Not a geography. Boy, I'm a words. Are you a Gemini by any chance? I'm not, but do you wanna keep guessing? Um, Sagittarius? No, I need more. I feel bad. Okay. Just tell me, Taurus. Oh, earthy. Yeah. Goodness. Yeah. But for what? People loves the finer things in life. Deliciously. So, but people don't, typically, don't, we, they don't typically tend to identify me as it, I'm a tourist on, uh, Libra Rising Cancer Moon, and I feel deeply represented by MyChart.


Oh, it's the Libra, you're always like, just like the diplomat and just kind of going with the, you said you were fluid earlier, so that, that makes sense. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So, Justin, you said one thing that I really wanna dig a little deeper on, um, about people, um, not, or you telling your clients not to immediately seek to monetize on social, immediately seek to, okay, how can this get me paid?


Right. And Candace and I have hopped on calls with prospective clients where they're like, but how does Instagram put money in my bank account? And I'm like, Hmm, you have the order of operations incorrect. So, for sure. And also I think most people just have the. Wrong game plan. So I'll speak just from a business perspective and then I'll speak from I suppose like the, the chronology mindset wise.


Monetizing social media platforms is so uncertain and keeps you reliant on the algorithm and, and may, let me make that very clear. I mean, brand deals, creator programs, making money from views like the least efficient way to monetize social media. You are so much better off focusing first and foremost on.


Who the fuck are you? What do you want to create? What are you passionate about sharing? Do not niche down, please. That's another one of my big things. It's like you really don't have to put yourself in a box or cut off your limbs to satisfy some math formula on a computer that you'll never see. Start showing up as you.


'cause chances are you'll pick a niche and you'll realize, I fucking hate talking about this, but it's been three months and it's too late. Can't turn back now. So focus on content that allows you to get to know you because I promise you that'll help us get to know you. And building that connection builds trust.


Building up a bank of trust, nothing is more powerful as currency. So I say don't focus on monetization. Additionally, and from a selfish standpoint, I never promise money as a deliverable from working with me because that's not. The relationship I wanna form, nor do I think I'm the expert in making money online, although I've done quite well.


I think to have monetization on the forefront of your brain will have you making so many short, strategic, best practice informed choices in your content creation, that you're not focusing on the storytelling or the self excavation or exploration at all. Yeah. Uh, could not agree more. We always say that it's a, so many of the things that you think you need are actually a byproduct of what you actually need, and you don't really realize that until you hire somebody or, or get in partnership with somebody who's like, Hmm, but Justin really like, and they allow you to take a good, hard look at you and help you figure that out.


Yeah, I'm, I was actually curious, what's one thing you have heard from people that they think they need but is in fact a byproduct? They think they need a template or a hook or a content calendar or, you know, they do think they need the perfect niche or the opposite of that. They think they need to be everything to everyone, and then they completely lose themselves in that, and they have no firm understanding, firm footing of like.


The foundation, which is their identity, which is why I'm sure Candace like has been following you since the pandemic and why I've enjoyed, since she put you on my radar. It's just who you are. Like that's, that's the thing. But people don't get that at first. I always say it's because I'm asking you in an unfair way to try the one concept that has no proof of working and it's being yourself because it's so easy to look outside yourself.


Externally and be like, well, Bethany Frankel, I, I like her as an archetype. I think she's cool, she's outspoken. How did she get to where she is? And like, chances are, you're not gonna invent Skinny Girl 2.0. Additionally, like the paths other people trod are not yours to tread. So try the one concept you never have, which is like.


Very Q into the unknown frozen two Idina menzel. So I love everything that you just said. It's like, yeah, it's gonna be blurry as shit for like a really long time actually, and I don't even think it's been super clear for me. I've just gotten really, I also also say I love, I think if you're not enjoying content creation, you're not creating about the right thing.


So this really should be enjoyable at the end of the day. Cathartic, even. One of the things that you've said we're like pulling out all your quotes. Um, you talk about why you think. We, I wanna know why you think humans have been trained to not show their humanity online. Amazing. So it has to go back to like when we're all kids and it doesn't necessarily have to do with humanity then, although I do kind of love that label.


It has to do with the fact that I believe, and I suppose this could be proven, but also it's just logical. We don't like pop out. That self-aware we like literally came into this world that is new and we are new to it and. Hello. I have an eight, eight week old and she's barely discovering her hands. She is like, I think this is mine.


I think I could do something with this. Yeah. Oh my god. That's like a fresh baby. Oh yeah. It is fresh. Super fresh. Yeah. She's so precious, so fresh her for the first time last week. Yeah. Oh, okay. So that's actually fascinating, right? Like unfortunately for this fresh eight week goal. 'cause it just will happen.


'cause it happens to everybody and it probably won't be you, someone somewhere, another kid, an adult, a mentor will weather. Purposefully or inadvertently point something out about this sweet child that they didn't previously identify as bad or wrong. And it isn't. It just means that they stand out differently from other people.


Now I think that this goes back to like limbic system, reptilian, caveman brain of like standing Audi 'cause equals dangerous because if we're not in the cave, then the saber tooth tiger gets us. So for me, this was my last name. That was the first one. It made fun of misspelled, and again, like second graders have.


Terrible senses of humor, but they're really quick for that low hanging fruit and so like that they are shoes. I was like, okay, well that's really offensive to me back then. And then it was, of course I started taking dance class in third grade, so like that wasn't super helpful, but I just had so many things pointed out about me that were clearly deemed as undesirable because I felt terrible when people pointed that out.


So you learn very quickly, well, I don't want to stand out. I don't want to be in danger. I don't wanna feel unsafe. I will just hide the things that I can. Cool. Mm. And then you grow up to be an adult who is hidden, constructing and curating a version of your person that is more tolerable. The interesting thing is social media isn't this like matrix of another dimension.


I think that people sort of, uh, divest it from reality so intensely. It's just a magnification of who you already are. So if you are that person in life, chances are you're gonna bring that person onto the internet because it's even more visible than you are in your real life. Which is why, again, I'm so lucky for that like immediate cheat code of, of trust and compassion I've built with people because they do typically tend to share whatever they can identify as that unguarded, unveiled self with me on calls.


Um, but ultimately the way that we be is just a habit system. And so until we identify that and start working on. Breaking down the old habit system while simultaneously building a new one. A very difficult task. That's who you're going to continue to performatively share with the world. It's all you've known for a really long time.


I'm just, I know. There's so much. So much. Okay, listen. Just like guys, oh my goodness. Crew. Okay. Candace, yes. I, I want an example for the clever crew of a habit. Maybe you or one of your clients have dismantled and a habit that they have incorporated to kind of make it con, make a fuzzy feel, tangible thing.


A little concrete. Yeah. So I can, I can go concrete, but I'll like zoom out just a little bit because I think this is one that I hear all the time, right? It's this general sense of overthinking. Now we're not like, I don't believe we're given to overthinking. Overthinking is a. Result or a symptom of a diagnosis, which is, well, what will be the result of my actions as perceived by others?


Or the result of what I say? Or how will this be taken by people? And so I think one of the greatest things that I've learned about content is that some of my most viral videos that are way longer than like 30 seconds, y'all, by the way, I'm making like nine minute videos on TikTok. So hit follow. Um. Are the things that not only did I not overthink, I barely thought, period.


Like I'm really pro, oh my God, I'm in a house with dogs right now and I don't do, not that I don't do them, but like they are present and I'm not normally one with them. And so I was like, don't you jump up here. Um. I always refer to it as like very thoughtful, thoughtless content. Like I wanna give full scarecrow from Wizard of Oz, but just because I'm channeling and I'm not filtering or editing at all in that moment.


And so getting over that overthinking is such a beautiful habit to dismantle. 'cause what you're really dismantling is not the habit of overthinking, but the habit of giving a fuck what other people think. You're dismantling the fear. Yes. And I think the fear in a weird way, like this is just coming to me in this moment.


I think like the laws of energy, like energy cannot be created, destroyed, merely transferred, right? I think the fear shifts, right? Like we find other things to be afraid of. Let's be honest, the human experience is terrifying as we do always. Yes, as we do. It's like always in the car with us. It's just no longer calling the shots, driving from the GPS, right?


We're gonna do this next. Um, so that's a, that's a hard one to grasp because like overthinking is like, what? But it is that sense of. Here's something pretty concrete, and this will speak to, I assume this is a big assumption to make, that you have probably a largely female identified audience that just feels like the vibe, demographic wise, making an assumption.


The idea of like, I need to get makeup and do my hair and have perfect lighting before I show up on a Zoom for work or whatever. Do you, do you, and I mean. Says who so off sis. Right? Right. But if you like love putting on lashes every day, you do you, but if you're doing it out of fear, if it's a mask you're purposefully putting on, because what would they see otherwise?


That's something we could examine. Right? Yeah. So I guess the incorporation there is like, wow, it takes me an hour and a half less to get ready for work when I'm willing to just open it up and log in. Right? Yeah. Is, are those concrete enough? Do they feel satisfying? Yeah, definitely. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. And I know our clever crew, we've heard those before and I love them.


I always tell my, my people, the clever crew, that when we bring someone on, it's like we just brought on the fun auntie to say the cool things instead of the mom and dad who are always like, you know, we're old hat. Yeah, exactly. We've been here from the beginning. Right. We've said it, but now, now like you are so much cooler.


Mm-hmm. So people are listening to that. You know what I, you know what I mean? I just need that second. Person to say the same thing that we've been saying in a cooler way so it hits again, not my dog, but like I guess my dog. This is Cat, your dog. For the next, wait, what's his name? Um, I think it's Cali.


Cali. What kind, do you know what kind of dog it is? Cava. P. Oh, okay. So cute. Um, y'all, if you need to watch the video of this, because I think, I think the video viewing is required. Required. So happy about having the dog in his lap. Okay. We'll just continue as if it's just normal. It's a normal, normal. Yeah, we could do we want on that.


Nice. Clever. My cat's right there. He's, he's hanging out on the little like ledge. Perfect. Yeah. As long as we all have a menagerie next to us, then we're good. We do great. My baby are downstairs with grandma, so that's cool. Mm-hmm. Perfect. Oh, Nana's home. By the way, she wants to be called Gigi. So for clarification, oh.


Out in the world, Los OkayI Gigi is the chosen name. Yes. Gigi heard. We will respect Gigi. Um. I think, I think being camera ready, the idea of readiness, the idea of overthinking, all of that, that super concrete, like, and, and to your point, I love that you called out, if you love doing makeup, if that makes you feel alive, do it.


Like for me it was, I tried to do the makeup. I'm not a makeup girl, but I love a good blowout. I love my hair. I like, that's what I enjoy and delight in. And then I just do what feels best, but don't go all out on unlike the other things. And so I think. Being aware and discerning what does make you feel alive and then leaning into that is the thing.


I agree. And, and just one thing I'll point out, uh, that I could have perhaps said earlier, but I think the real differentiation between authenticity and inauthenticity for me is are the things that you're doing saying, being. Uh, a product of fear of what other people might think, or completely self-directed, guided by your own values, the path you believe you just, you need to take to achieve the goals that you want to.


So again, that's to take the makeup one step further is, am I doing this for me because I'm obsessed with beating my face every day and I love a good contour? Or is this like my boss will think me unprofessional if I come in with a top knot, you know? Mm, mm-hmm. Great gut check there. Mm-hmm. So. Like kind of trap that we see sometimes our clever crew fall into.


Um, it's even started to happen for Candace and I, um, and I'm sure it's happened for you, you have an audience, um, that's quite sizable, right? If you just look at, on paper it's 700,000 plus, which is, you know, 20 times the size of my hometown that I grew up in. And it's, it's a lot, right? And I think the trap that people fall into is comparing chapter one to chapter 20.


So could you just. Pull back the curtain. What did the journey start? Like, what did it look like at the beginning? Because I feel like people just magically think you, you popped onto TikTok and then you all, all of a sudden had all these people. That's the misnomer. Let me, yeah. Let me also say misnomer.


Okay. Uh, let's also say why you feel that way. And the reason you feel that way is because when you're scrolling on your for you page or Instagram reels. You see one of your favorite creators, and they just seem, whether you, uh, consciously identify this or subconsciously they seem so, uh, articulate.


They're such a great storyteller. They really feel so at home in their content. You're seeing there like 1500th studio. But to you, who doesn't really think of that in this moment? This person is just so good at what they do. They're so good at being them. Mm-hmm. So you take that as your norm. So you're going to compare yourself with Elise Meyers.


You're going to watch Mikayla's makeup videos and be like. She just is so good at being this, and I'm like, yeah, like if we could scroll back, if we could and had any desire to scroll back, you would I, you would see a different person. And so to speak to my personal journey, which I will full out, I'll say in the beginning, I cheated.


I've been on Broadway as an actor. As we pointed out before, like speaking and talking and embodying myself is something. That I've had literal training in, however, was still terrified. Like I really don't think I kind of figured this shit out until I was 30, which was three years ago. But the very first content pieces I posted, which you will not see because I did make them private.


Strategically archive. Yep. Uhhuh, yes, they are hidden from view. Mm-hmm. But I would resurface them for education. No, not even a question. I have no real, uh, I mean it, they're embarrassing to me, but the gag is what I'm saying. The very same messages, right? The way that I'm saying them entirely different. It just is vanilla.


Like I am watching a blander more polished version of myself with perfect lighting and. In a very way, sort of like this. Tell me about the three things that you should do when you show up on camera. Oh, my exhausting God. It's just like that voice that's, we know it. We all know it. People still for sure still doing it and it's like people don't hear it.


One of my favorite things to identify for people is like, you know the cadence you see in, right? Like this, yeah. Habitual pattern you do in your like video voice. And so that's fun, but that's the biggest difference. And I think what I finally was met with was. What I finally was met with was such frustration at the amount of effort it took to create content because it was such a departure from who I was that one of my earlier videos that performed really well, I like strolled that outta my bedroom in my robe with frownie on my forehead, glistening with skincare, and like put the phone down and in Sleepy voice made a video about something and it was as if realness.


Entered the chat and it really moved people in some sort of a way. And it was interesting to me how novel a lack of performativity was and is still on social. Yeah. But you don't enter the scene making your 10th, hundredth or 2000th video. Your first hundred videos are probably gonna be clumsy as shit.


The mistake is thinking you can skip through that phase, you must go through it. Mm-hmm. Yeah, it is a rite of passage. It is the awkward teenage years of social welcome. Yeah. Yes. And how lucky are you that there are so many people you can turn to for tutelage or advice, or higher, um, to make that process go faster?


But again, don't fall into the trap of listening to people who say they have the one size fits all the template. The calendar. Those are definitively not the answer, and I promise you that. I'm bowing. Guys, if you're only watching the audio like this is the virtual bow happening right now. I'm receiving it.


Listen to cool auntie. All right. Justin's receiving it, right? I love it when it comes to building a personal brand. Kat and I work with people from all different industries, but a lot of our clientele are from real estate, mortgage, um, that space. A lot of people in sales in general, I'd say is who we work with.


A lot of times we hear, I don't need a personal brand. I'm just, I'm a real estate agent. I just need to sell houses. What's your. Take on that. I would love a conversation like that. 'cause with that person, I would say, cool. Totally heard. So how do you plan on selling the houses? And they would probably tell me either they're gonna fly or they're gonna have open houses.


I love those ideas, right? I mean, try true, test it. Yep. Lit. Mm-hmm. But ain't broke. So then I'm like, cool flyers. So that requires like an in-person sort of moment, right? You gotta hand them out to people. Open house. And I understand that this is only local, right? People aren't gonna fly across country to, unless.


There must be an easier way to get the word out though. No, don't you think? Well, I guess I could post on social. Right? Cool. So if you're gonna post on social, do you think like it's a carousel of pictures of the house? Well, sure. Cool. Can I trust a house? Like I have no connection to this property at all.


I. What is there for me there? And again, this, I'm not gonna do a whole back and forth, although that sounds like a fun acting challenge. It does. I think that there's, when somebody says, I don't need a personal brand. I'm a real estate agent, I just need to sell houses. What they're really saying is, I couldn't possibly, because why would I need a personal brand?


I don't, I'm not that. I'm not that guy, which is really saying like, I don't deserve that. Yes. Is what I hear. Just given again, how many, literally hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of people I've done these sessions with. I don't need a personal brand. That sounds like something, someone who's, someone would have.


Yes. Okay, bitch. And aren't we all someone? Mm-hmm. That's the point. Right? Period. Actually, the concept zero concept with a tried or tested before. Exactly. And so I, it's very interesting to hear who y'all work with. I just think that especially in 2025, consumers have never been more savvy and we're just tired of being sold to.


Mm-hmm. So part and parcel with personal branding is storytelling is not focusing on the sale, but focusing on the creation of trust. Like any person in any business, in any arena, I too have a very, very client roster from doctors to hairstylists to sex workers. Like doing brand strategy for an OnlyFans trader is my dream.


It's all deeply entrenched in storytelling, or I believe it has to be. Yeah. Right. Stories can sell a house. A person can sell a house. A person who tells stories sells houses far faster than a person who believes the house will just sell itself. Yeah. Mm-hmm. We're not in that economy anymore in 2020. Sure you could sneeze and sell a house, but things have reset in a larger scale.


Mm-hmm. And I also wonder, I'd love your take on this, Justin, 'cause I think Candace and I see this where clients think that it has to be hard or it has to be this way 'cause it's always been this way. And like you can have a successful real estate business or sales business or OnlyFans business. Um, but I feel like.


I feel like branding is almost a cheat code. It's almost an accelerant. It almost helps you stand out. It, it helps you, you know, lean in and I don't know, like what, what is your, what is your take on that? Yes, I. One, I have to say it 'cause I can't close the tab. I also acknowledge we've all seen the videos of people waiting to see apartments in New York City.


There are like lines 30 people deep and you're like, it's not hard to sell a place this time. Like, I get it, right? Real estate is not a one size fits all, but I have to say it out loud, right? People always, people will be like, they don't really know about houses, which also like, I don't fucking know about houses.


I, not a real estate. We're civilians, but yeah, we know humans and we know branding and we know storytelling, so, exactly. You know, but my, before I answer that question, my question back to you is, do y'all have a def, like a working definition of what branding is or what a personal brand is? That you guys leverage.


The one I use on stage all the time is Rory Vains definition that a personal brand is the digitization of your reputation. Hmm. I like that. I, I love that because everyone understands what a reputation is and your parents and your school teachers taught you to, you know, manage your reputation, take care of it.


Um, think about how you want to be seen in the world, what you want people to say about you, and act accordingly. Right? Um, and so I feel like everyone knows reputation, and so digitization is the part where they're scared, and that's where I come in. Mm. That's what I use. That is your similar, it's, it's similar and complimentary.


So I look at it as, you know, personal brand specifically, not company or or corporate brand. It's the expression of what you believe in your values, your story, your emotional connection, the common ground that really forges and strengthens those relationships online. As you are digitizing and we know emotion, overrules logic.


So that's why if you are actually developing a personal brand, you could have less experience, not have sold in the zip code, not be as confident in a specific area. But if you've got that brand connection, people are like, Justin's my guy. They're like, but this guy's more experienced with, I don't care.


Justin's my guy. Because I'll piggyback off of that something that I say, and then I have my two little definitions, is that your experience is your expertise. Mm-hmm. And so it's like instead of needing to point to the diploma from Harvard on the wall where I did not go, or like the number in your bank account with a screen cap, well, I just be a really consistent version of myself co consistently that you've now consumed consistently.


And you believe me when I say who I say I am. And that's power, right? That's me, a personal brand. So the two definitions I always say is quite simply authenticity plus strategy equals a personal brand, right? Like that's how we get to one. I suppose there's an implied digitization in there, although I think that that's a strategy part though.


It is. It is. And additionally, what I was gonna say is like. Celebrities who we don't know primarily from the internet, they also have have brands, right? That they've just lived out through the, I mean, we take them in through different forms of media, like paparazzi, photos and the interviews and whatever.


But I'm getting, that's so not necessary in this moment. The other thing I say is like, you being a sentence and a half that lives rent free in someone's head is the most perfect brand that exists. And I say that because I experienced it. I was in, I was, um. Uh, recognized in the Minneapolis airport by a flight attendant, and I went over to say hello, and she introduced me to her like gaggle of flight attendants.


And she was like, okay, his name is Justin. And he, he talks about authenticity and human is in his name. And I was like, those are all true things. There go. And I was like, that's all I care about. Like literally she did the job for me. It was a sentence and a half and I was like, that's all I really needed.


So I was like, wow. It took 2000 plus videos to make that happen, but. I live rent free in this wonderful, wonderful flight attendant's head, and she's one singular person, right? So that's also, you can scale your presence. So not only is it, not only is it the digitization of your reputation, it is a way of scaling your efforts, scaling your impact, scaling your storytelling to impact the world writ large.


Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Beyond the screens, not even in the feed. Mm-hmm.


There you go. We're gonna put that on a T-shirt. Really? I know I said this first already. We're gonna put that on T-shirt. Don't really need to watch this on YouTube because there's so much happening. That arm that's not being said. I've been told my face. Has subtitles, which sometimes gets me in trouble.


I, I like that. Have you seen that real? Yeah. Yeah. Where it's like husband, the husband has to tell the wife that the wife has her face, has subtitles when they're like talking with friends. And my boyfriend was like, that's you. I love that. I, um, am not, I've never seen that. I sometimes think I know what my face is doing.


I have seen video footage that proves the contrary. So I just know. And sometimes it's like, I must not be seen when I'm. When I'm witnessing certain things. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Um, I also realized, I guess it just means like subconsciously I just don't care about letting people know what I think, which again, toes, the authentic slash asshole line, but you know, you know.


There you go. So I think another. Another objection that I know we hear, like, and Candace and I are 1500 videos in, you're 2000 videos in, there's somebody else who's 8,000 videos in, like, everybody's on their own journey. Um, we hear a lot and I can imagine our crew saying, but you guys are so interesting.


You lead such interesting lives. Like you've got a great story. I don't have a story. Mm-hmm. What's, what's the, what's the Justin version of that session? What's that look like? You guys are. Pulling my favorite hits. This is giving. Oops, I did it again. Yep. Um, I always tell us, if you've decided you're uninteresting, well then you are right because you're not wrong.


We aren't, we don't have a predilection. We're not giving to thinking you're interesting unless you help us know how and why you are. The other part is. We're not looking for you to not be interesting. Right? There's this thing we always say in the in theater, or one of the things people will say is like, you know, the people behind the casting table, like, they want you to be the answer.


They want you to be the person that they can just like cancel the rest of auditions because you're, you're so perfect. I mean, we are looking to be affected, to be moved, to be changed, to be inserted. V receiving verb here by the content we see on our for you page. Yeah. Um, I think it goes back to that concept zero that you've never tested before because it's this idea of like, well, that's i'll, I made a video once about this where I was like, you might not realize, but the way that you walk through the grocery store, the way that you, you do the whole perimeter first, and then you zigzag and you must go up and down every single aisle, even if you don't need things in every single aisle.


You don't think that's interesting, but I swear to God, if you went out into your car and you realized like this is a really idiosyncratic, strange thing, what if I just shared this benign, banal, innocuous blah? Mm-hmm. Someone out there, I've made a video about a pill organizer that went so viral and I was, again, it, I think it was cute and funny, but like not interesting by anybody's standards, and yet the world had a lot of things to say.


So again, if you've decided you're uninteresting, well then you probably are because you're not going to share anything with us. The way that you share that information will come across as like, well, this is boring as shit. So like, I mean, honestly, I'm apologizing for even saying it or taking up your time.


Well, yeah, I'm out of here then too. You know, like, this is uncomfortable. I'm gonna just continue. I don't need to watch self-deprecation. Like I can watch old home movies, but that's actually not true. If I saw the joke in my head and I head to follow through. Um, we love a follow through. I just like saw it.


I was like, you're gonna say this, this is false, but then say it's a joke. Uh, I don't want to watch somebody like exuding a sense of apology and I'm so sorry I'm taking up your time for, I. Any amount of time, and that's what you're guaranteeing yourself when you just continue to say, I have no story. I'm uninteresting.


I always remind people to think about the things that they consume because people watch other people make their coffee every single day. People watch people go on their morning walk every single day and they like it and they're like, oh yeah, oh, she saw a hummingbird again today. You're like talking about random things that someone else is doing in their life.


You are consuming that. So why would someone not want to consume that from you? The follow up is usually, yeah, but that's them. Yeah. Because they're in, they're the interesting one. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Right. And so I, it's just, I will say like, those are the conversations, not that I grow tired of, but I have worked with, I've been faced with people who are so devoutly attached to their limiting beliefs.


That, and I, there's a, this is a quote from a book. It's not mine, but if you argue for your limitations, you get to keep them. And I have for sure had to like, been like, I, you, I'm believing in you more than you are in this moment, right? Where I'm just talking the scorecard correctly. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And, and at the end of the day, like the answer is yes.


And I was like, then actually there's not really much for us to do here, but my God, I wish you well. You know, it's like I can't, I am not gonna fight you harder than you're willing to believe in yourself. Oh, man, that is so true. I feel like that's one of the, the things that is like a. It's like a red flag that we cannot turn into a green flag.


Like there, I mean obviously I, I always, and I'm, I'm sure Candace says too, we gut check if we work with anybody, we partner or collaborate with anybody, do they align with our values? Maybe they don't have to align a hundred percent, but there has to be some sort of common ground mm-hmm. And connection point, um, how they make decisions, um, how they move their energy, all of that.


Um, but yeah. Wow. So who, what is the attitude that the ideal client comes to you with? Hmm. Oh God, I love that. Um, I'm gonna say the, the funny answer first, which is true. It's usually like a, I'd like to pay up front and I, and I mean that from like one, my bank account loves it, but two, that is this person who doesn't need a conversation because they're so convinced I'm already the person.


Yeah. And that person who's like. I'm giving you me, mold me in your image or what you think I'm supposed to be. And again, now I'm being a little bit like your image as Justin, as God more me. Right? Right. I don't mean to like actually give myself a God, God complex, but it's these people who we already named you Wizard today, the think will, this is true.


So like it's only a couple notches above that. Right. There we go. It stands to anger far more people than just, you know, Harry Potter, you know. It, it, it's people for whom that the trust is there and I don't have to do anything further. And I, I really truly, to be totally frank, have no interest. Like if I end up on a discovery call with you and I feel at all I need to do convincing it's over.


No, I've already said no in my head. Yeah. I recently had actually somebody, um, working with me typically for one-on-one P clients is a three month container. Yeah. He said, I would propose we make it five months. And I was like, right. And he was like, but with the same investment. And I was like, I propose I'm gonna shut my computer.


So, um, 'cause it was via email, it was awful. But the attitude is, I said this before so I'll just say it again, is not, I need the money tomorrow 'cause I'm also just not your guy. Right. There's plenty of people selling you on a very predatory dream out there. That's not me. Yeah. Um, and a real willingness.


And when I tell you like this is going to be very hard at times. And I'm not gonna give you a formula. So you have to be okay with that. And just trusting me. And I swear to God, every single client who says yes to me and then sticks with it, gets through that a hundred video, um, that tipping point. Pub puberty phase.


Exactly. Yeah. And there's this click moment that happens and I was like, if you can stick with me till the click, you will be so glad you did. And I said this, I was working with GPT the other day, like messaging and shit, and I was like, I feel like I just professionally. See people like, I'm very comfortable with seeing you.


Mm-hmm. So then I allow you and enable you to see yourself until you are comfortable doing the same, such that you are sharing on social, which is how you're doing that excavation, but also the creation of the personal brand in tandem. And the byproduct being everything we've talked about, trust, community, potentially money.


Mm-hmm. Um, but it's an attitude of openness and willingness. Yeah. And that views don't fucking matter. I really have to say that when I left, oh my God, the analytics are not Right. I don't mind if I have to talk you through why. Right. But then you have to come to a place. 'cause I tell you, your views will flop.


Like, uh, we're gonna make flops. We need to Yep. It's data, it's testing, it's also just reps signaling, we don't give a fuck, you know? Yeah. Mm-hmm. You know, I have been off of social media for probably nine weeks. Mm-hmm. You know, I've posted here, they're my daughter, but I, I really wanted to take time to just like be present with my baby and my family.


Yeah. And so I took a social media break. Can I tell you that my business is still on pace to outpace last year because of. All of the content I've already created, all of the relationships I already have. All of my past clients still referring me, tagging me. Uh, I still am on pace to outpace last year.


Mm-hmm. And I want to say that because. People have built trust with me because of this bank of videos that I've created for them over time. So much so that they're happy to say my name even when it feels like I'm not in it right now. Mm-hmm. And I also think, oh, I'm so sorry. So sorry. Go. No, please go ahead.


Oh my God, I'm so, I'm really bad at that. I get very excited, but I'm like, I guess on your podcast. No, we talk over each other all the time. Yeah, it's all good. We don't take offense to it. I just think what you're saying is so beautiful and pertinent in an angle I want to point out 'cause you're expressing it so.


Perfectly. Is that short form content typically thought of as like you post it and it instantly collects dust? I always picture like a snow globe on a mantle, and it's just like flick. It belongs in the attic immediately. It is actually, it, there is an evergreen nature to it. Mm-hmm. And in a, in a way just.


Building to the question I actually realized I didn't actually answer Kat. The cheat code of branding perhaps is it's the evergreen funnel that never stops working once you've invested enough time into the creation of said funnel. But it's, it isn't a funnel, but it is a bank. It is a body of work that people can discover at any time.


Yeah. And so I think it's beautiful Candace, and that's such a great message for the audience too, because like, although consistency is great. You taking care of you first and foremost is better. Yeah. 'cause otherwise you're guaranteed to burnout at some point. And Candace needed these nine weeks. She's literally growing a human people.


And also less is more please. Less is more is one of my mantras in 2025. I'm so tired of the more, more, more, more, more. Less is more. You'll have more by doing less. It's all good.


Justin, before we get to our not nice advice segment, which is our newest and favorite and most latest segment, you revealed something super cool and super amazing that made me squeal, uh, before we hopped on here today. And Okay, sorry. Sorry. This whole episode, episode, take it out of context. Okay. I was gonna say Japan.


Okay. Talk to us about Japan. Guys. We're not going down like an only, like, it just, we're keeping it PG 13 for today. Soft. Yeah, for today, you. Tell us Japan context wise. I'll just say in 2022, I went through a really rough breakup, teen of the scene, Turner Musical, the Broadway show was enclosed. I got Covid for the third time.


My God. So 2023. Damn. End of your, your sat in return, like it was like goodbye. Um, 2023 for me, I titled my Year of Purposeful Discomfort because I knew I needed to grow in ways I hadn't previously. Um, so I was like, I'm gonna go on a solo trip, which actually wasn't even a thought in my head. I had joined like Scotch Cheap Flights, which is now going, and I got like a mistake fair in my email for Japan.


Okay. And it was like a, it took me three flights to get there. So I wasn't advocate, I'm not advocating for this going forward, but my base fair was like $600 for a round trip. So I did put myself in exit rows in all the flights, but it still cost me like $900 round trip to get to Japan. It did take me like 31 and a half hours, but I'm really good at staying awake.


Um. And I had never traveled by myself before, so I figured let's go to the other side of the world. Why not? Why not? Bye mom. So I got there incredibly sleep deprived, but like was welcomed by this city also. Like May is a beautiful month to go. It was after Cherry blossom. So did you go in 2023? Yes. I was in Japan in May of 2023.


Yeah, I'm serious. Where? That's where crazy. So I flew into, I flew into Heida, or no, I flew into nta. It should have been Heida because it's like, oh my God, to try to get to Tokyo and I was in Tokyo for Do Rita Express? Yeah, after the flight. Yeah. Oh, Jesus. And I had a layover in Montreal. Yes. This is insane.


Okay. Yeah, so. You guys like crossed paths in town. I was in Tokyo for like a day and a half, like maybe May 10th, no, may like seventh or eighth. And then I took a plane up to Hokkaido 'cause that's where my grandmother was born and I was up in Hokkaido, like all around the countryside, taking the for a few days.


And then I took a plane to Osaka and then the train to Kyoto and then I went to Nada and then back to Tokyo and then down to Peninsula. I was there from like May 7th or eighth to like May 22nd. In 2023, we were there the exact same time. My birthday's, what the fuck? My birthday's May 17th, and I got back to New York City the day before my birthday, and then on my birthday.


Only wished I was still in Japan. No, my ary was, I started in, I also flew into nida. Took to press. Yep. Stayed in Shibuya for first several days. Oh yeah. Then went to Kyoto. Ended up extending a day there because I fell in love with the city. Oh my God. I wanna move to Kyoto Uhhuh. I, I also could do revolving sushi.


I. Every meal every day for the rest of my life. Done always. Yeah. Um, I did a day trip to Osaka Day, trip to Nara, and then I came back to Tokyo and I did hin Juku for the rest of my trip. What? Yeah. At the exact same time. How did we not? That's so crazy, y'all. Wow. We'll just have to go back. Done. Obviously, clearly each us is already there, so a future always there.


And that's the problem. It broke me. It's. Loud and, and, and I just have such anxiety and Yes, and it feels scary all the time. It didn't feel like home. It was so quiet and just peaceful. It was so quiet. And it's, and again, like we, I'd be remiss if I didn't mention like the bedrock and foundation of Japanese culture is fascinating, but also like there's a lot of deeply rooted gender stuff there, and I understand that that's built in, right.


So the. A manifestation, the safety and the order, which feels so good to somebody visiting. I can imagine somebody living there. There's probably some other stuff there, so I just have to say that out loud. Yep. But what, what I experienced was people who could fall asleep on trains and not like clutch their briefcase because no one's gonna take it.


And bikes left unlocked on streets and. Etiquette that I'd never seen anywhere else. Like, I love when watching people get stuck in bow offs because they were just professing their gratitude to each other again and again and again. And I was like, or like the fact that the elevator buttons have a a, a button set that can be reached for people in a wheelchair who are handicapped.


The fact that there are bot dots for the blind everywhere. Everywhere. Like they take care of everyone there. It's like. And bidets bidets everywhere. Oh my gosh. I, we bought a bidet when we got back. Like the one that you like not a full thing. Um, a tushy. Yes. Yes. Yeah. I got a tushy. Oh yeah. Oh my gosh.


Never go back again. Never go back again. Yeah. Sorry. Toilet paper industry. It's sorry's. Very, we just singlehandedly took down Charmin. We did. They're coming for us. Yeah. I, it's, it's just a very magical place. And for what it's worth, it, it, while there were moments of discomfort. I am, I surprised myself. I impressed myself.


I love solo traveling. I went to London last year. I kind of try to do one huge international solo trip each year. Yeah. Um, I also went to Burning Man in 2023, which was the year of the mud. And so that was also like a, okay, let's learn a lot about ourselves. Yes, Kansas is a very special place. Um, and, and again, broke me 'cause I, I felt what it felt like.


I was like, oh, I'm not just depressed. I don't just have depression. New York is a heavy place. And Japan is not. No. Is is New York. Are you a New Yorker for life? I was born in Long Island and so I've like spent almost the entirety of my life in New York, except for the four years I spent in Chicago. I went to Northwestern University.


Um, it's a great question. I have a sick rent deal. I love my apartment. My apartment's very beautiful, but I also just have the kindest building owners and managers ever. Mm-hmm. So I will never get rid of that apartment, but I have just. In my head, I am building a life where I make enough money that I can fuck off whenever I want to, wherever I want.


And yeah, this podcast interview is a perfect example. We've had this scheduled for a long time. Yeah. And I realized, I been in Florida and I was like, okay, like I can do this. You can do it anywhere with my clients, I can work, I can do this work from absolutely anywhere. Yep. And so at this point, while I think I will always have a place in New York because I'm definitely not done performing, I for sure would like to be back on Broadway.


There's too much world to see that I haven't yet. Mm-hmm. And I've even done so much exploring around the US to be like, y'all Oregon's beautiful. Washington is stunning. It's, yeah. Like, bring me back to Utah. And so I think to say I'm a New Yorker for the rest of my days would be selling so many other places, short Kat and I, 10 out 10, recommend moving a big move or a two in your lifetime because mm-hmm.


It really gives you that opportunity to reevaluate everything and reevaluate. Your friend group reevaluate your work, reevaluate how you, your identity, your values, day to day activities, you know, all of that. And that scares me. For us, it's been really, I can see your face. It's like, it's okay though. It's, I, yeah, but Taurus is not meant to always move an uproot, but it, it can be a really exciting time.


And I'm just gonna throw in San Diego. Because why not San Diego? Well, that's that where you are future. Where? Yeah. And we're gonna have a future, uh, podcast studio there for not nice, clever. I don't know. When, where are you That I'm in Philly for now. Okay. Another major move. Another upheaval coming soon.


Yes. We'll see. Wow. Cool. Well, that's inspiring. I have how many times? 19, 17 times since I turned 17. Yes. By choice, always. Um, no. By survival, by necessity, by fear. But now I only make moves out of love. That is like my intention. But the majority of the moves that I made in my life were made out of fear.


Fear, but it's okay because it was kind of like I hit that tipping point and now I'm, I'm resourced and wise and I make moves out of love. Like I'm running, I'm moving towards something instead of running away from something. You know, there's so many times where we're like burning the life down to my ground and I'm running away, and it's like, Hmm, but that doesn't solve the problem.


So I've learned that lesson. Post Saturn return. Thank goodness. Wow. Cool. That's amazing. Well, we could talk to you forever, Justin. We could. Oh yeah, no, I do. We could talk to you forever, but, um, because we want to respect your time, we do wanna talk to you about the not nice advice segment. Yes. I want it.


Alright. Kat, do you mind, um, reading it for him? Not at all. Okay, so Justin, this was written in by a member of the Clever Crew. They say, I'm working with a client who's consistently missing deadlines. They push past boundaries that I've set and somehow flip the script always to make it feel like I'm the one dropping the ball.


I know it's time to move on, but the part that's held me back is that I really care about my reputation and I'm nervous that they'll twist the story and share a version within our mutual circle. Share their version. Am I overthinking this? How do I exit this with confidence and zero regrets. Sincerely, ready to walk, but not burn bridges.


Ooh, title of my third memoir. Um, dear, ready to Walk but Not Burn Bridges. You're Not overthinking. This feels like a really qualified moment of reflection because you. I'm, I'm gonna say this isn't necessarily out of fear of how you'll be perceived for your actions. It's like fear of like weird libel and slander.


So I'm, I'm actually gonna classify this as like a really beautiful moment of introspection and I think you're really thinking about the health of your business and this dream that you're building as opposed to like, what will people think of me? Like I genuinely believe that energetically inside of the receiving of this question, would y'all agree?


I would. I would agree. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And there's no way you don't win. Because there's no way this other person doesn't lose. And I don't mean that with, uh, any malevolence in that. I just know too much about life at this point to believe. Anything to the contrary, this will seem, um, ancillary, but I. In 2015, my sister passed away in a car accident, which is something I talk about every so often.


Mm-hmm. Only to say like, I really feel, what helps me have my knowing is like when you have decidedly and knowingly hit what I would call rock bottom, you realize you've actually felt all the feelings you're gonna feel in your life by the time you're probably 20 something. You just learn, they go way deeper than you ever thought.


But it just shows me that like what matters and what doesn't. And what matters for you in this moment is saving any future time wasting this person who not only doesn't care about you, clearly doesn't care about themself, right? They've made an investment in something and couldn't fucking care less to meet a deadline to heed your boundaries, et cetera.


That person, to be totally frank, doesn't have the follow through to spread any shit about you, period. They could, and it would be so hollow and poorly done because let's be honest, like tactically, they can't execute. I think you, for yourself, why would they be able to execute on that? Why would they be good at spreading slander or launching a campaign in tirade against you on social if they can't do shit with themselves right now?


So I say, write the email, keep it as emotion free as possible, and recognize for yourself how many factual oversteps this person has done and how. Whatever the contract is. I mean, I, I guess I think of all sides of this, but like, this doesn't have to be emotional at all. This is like a, Hey, you've reached this contract in XY ways.


I've given you this many chances. It's just not a great fit anymore, and I think we should part ways, and it's as simple as that. You're gonna be fine. You're gonna be better than fine because you're listening to your body and following your values, and the next one to arrive will be so much better.


Can we make Justin a co-host on that? Nice. Clever. Is that, is that allowed Serious, that's a big offer. You guys like, talk about it first. Um, can have me back any time. I love rooms like this and conversations like this. And I, I will let everyone finish their sentences next time. That's a big promise. We, we can't make that promise, but we'd still love to have you back.


Yeah. But, but we believe you and we, we appreciate that. Thank you so much Justin. This was truly wonderful. Um, if anybody wants to follow me anywhere, I'm just Justin Schumann official pretty much. Everywhere we're dropping all your dets in the comments, all the links, they're there. We're making it easy.


Justin, higher hands. You can easy. Make it fun. Make care of. Thank you so much. Thanks for joining us on. Not Nice Clever. Remember to follow, not nice, clever, wherever you listen to audio. And if you haven't already, drop that five star review. Share your takeaways, tell us your story. We love to hear it.


Signing off, you're not so nice, but so clever besties that mean business. See you soon.