What the F*ck Do You Really Want? With Max Stephens

You did everything “right.” So why does it still feel… wrong?
If you’ve built the business, hit the milestones, and checked all the boxes—but deep down you’re wondering is this it?—this conversation will hit home.

Today’s guest is Max Stephens—personal development coach, speaker, and author of What the Fck Do You Really Want?* Known for cutting through the noise and calling out the BS in the coaching world, Max works with high-achieving entrepreneurs and execs to help them finally get real about what they actually want—and why they’re not going after it.

We’re talking about the cost of chasing external validation, the myth of “doing it all,” and how to rewrite the rules so your life actually feels like yours.

• Visit Max's Website
• Get Max's Book "What the f*ck do you really want?"

🏁 Connect With Us On Instagram!

• Not Nice Clever
• Candice Carcioppolo
• Kat Torre

📣 Amplify by Not Nice. Clever. is the ace up your sleeve. It's a hands on, workshop style delivery full of replicable frameworks, and actionable strategies that you team can put in place right away.

Find out more HERE.

🎙 Book Kat and Candice to speak at your next event, summit or workshop HERE

Transcript

 Instagram is like a first track for coaching.

Part of the challenge with coaching is it's largely, it's largely a western consumerist. Like I'll help you kick ass and achieve goals sort of, um, space. I can't tell you how many clients have come to me and said, you know, max, you are gonna be great for me 'cause I just need someone to hold me accountable.

And I'll say, well, don't you think the conversation that we need to be having is how come you feel you need someone to hold you accountable in the first place? Clever Crew. Today's guest is Max Stevens, personal development coach, speaker, and author of, what the Fuck Do You Really Want? He works with high performing entrepreneurs and execs who've done all the right things, but still feel like something's missing.

If you've ever looked around at your life, you've been checking all the boxes, and you still feel like it's just not clicking today's episode's for you. So this one is diving Deep. Max, very excited to have you here. Candace and I are stoked. Welcome to the show. Thank you so much for having me. I was looking forward to speaking with you both.

So when this email came across our inbox, we were like, this is right up the Clever cruise alley. Yeah. Because a lot of us are. People with a long list of goals, we are maybe never satisfied because we're always looking for the next thing. Um, I can definitely say that for myself, right? Every time I hit a goal, I'm like, okay, but now what can I do if I did that?

What's next? And I don't take the time to pause and celebrate and really reflect on, you know, how I got here because I'm always chasing the next thing. It sounds like you work with people like me, max. Um. So how did you kind of get into this business? How did you get into this lane? What brought you here?

Yeah, good question. So I was lucky slash unfortunate that I grew up in a drug addicted household and so that will turn anyone into a practical psychologist pretty quickly in terms of, I feel like there's only one or two ways. Yeah, you go in that one or Abso Absolutely. So you, you raised such a great point, like if you look at the.

Any studies around the children of addicts, um, normally what happens for them is that they will internalize a belief that they aren't lovable. Because if my dad had really loved me, then he would've been able to get healthy. And because he wasn't able to do that, like in this case, it was my dad, I must not be lovable, so I must not be worthy.

And so. Children in those situations will go in one of two directions where they'll seek out confirmation of that belief and normally either won't amount to much or will in some ways be self-destructive in some sense, um, because they're sort of seeking out the confirmation of that belief. Or they will work very, very hard to work against that belief and seek contrary evidence to that belief.

And I was just lucky that I fell into the second category. And so, but the thing that I was observing in my life was invariably, no matter what I had. Achieved. That sort of rumbling of disquiet had never left me. It always, it always stayed with me in an invariably, uh, returned, which that then moved me into, I, I, forgive me, I, I've told the story before, but that eventually moved me to, uh, India.

I went there when I was 17 or. Thereabouts. And I remember I was walking through the, the sort of slum area in, uh, where I was staying. And there was a guy who was sitting on the side of the road who was sitting in like a meditative sort of position who was clearly homeless and, um, and clearly quite malnourished.

And he was crying. And, uh, and I stopped and set up. Sir, I didn't mean to interrupt you, I just wanted to, uh, sorry I didn't mean to bother you. I just, I saw you were crying. Are you okay? He looked up at me and he said, oh yeah, no, no, no, I'm completely fine. I said, oh, wow, you speak like perfect English. 'cause the area that I was in, I was sort of like the only sort of famous white person there.

And um, and uh, he looked up at me and he said, yeah, no, no, I'm fine. And I said, oh, I just wanted to check. Uh, um, I saw that you were crying. He said, oh, no, no, these are happy tits. And I said, uh, and I said, oh, that's, that's great. I said, did you get good news or, you know, like, what, what happened? And he said, no, no, not, not really.

And I said, so why are you, why are you so happy? And he said, because I am. And that never left me. That got me very curious because even at 17, I thought to myself, you know, I already have more, whatever that means, like, than he ever will. And yet he's happier than I'll ever be. And, and I thought there's something profoundly wrong about the.

My pursuit of happiness, so to speak. And so that then moved me into the personal development sort of space around meditation. Um, and I started to, over time just gradually lose interest in my external reality and became more and more interested in my internal reality. Um, and that that was sort of like how my journey started, I suppose.

That's an amazing story. There's so many nuggets in there and I just, the one thing that I would love to, to say is a thank you for being very open about it and very honest. I think there's so much shame and guilt around people who grow up in homes like that or who are in, you know, struggling times. They don't wanna talk about it.

And I love that you're talking about it and the gentleman's response in just saying, because I am Candace and I say often, you know, when our clients tell us, well, when we're ready we'll do that. We're like, look ready. Like Ready is a decision. Take action and you'll be ready as you do it. Like waiting for permission from wherever is just a waste of time.

Permission to be happy. Permission to be successful. Permission insert here. We love handing out permission slips at not nice. Clever. So Max, I think you already handed out a few to the Clever crew. So one thing that you've said online, and I love this too, is that a lot of coaching today, especially in the era of Instagram and social media.

It's broken. Coaching is broken. Oh yeah. And so, oh, definitely. That's a very bold statement. I'm curious about the statement. I do agree with you to some extent, and I'd love to hear what does that mean? What have you seen? When was your, like, throwing in the towel? I'm gonna do it differently type of moment for you.

Okay. So why do I, why do I make that statement? So there's a lot of systemic, it's not, by the way, everything that I'm about to lay out, it's not like someone's fault. It's just the, the sort of nature, systemic nature of. The, the industry? Yeah. So there's a lot of, um, systemic problems within the industry. So number one is obviously like barrier entry is like incredibly low.

And so, uh, because of that, normally what we have is a lot of, uh, highly like unqualified people like moving into that space and like, you know, even to what you just said around like, Instagram is like a

more importantly. More importantly, I would argue that even if you look at the etymology, like so as in like the, the history of the word coach, it actually means to carry. So I will carry you while you work out what you need to do for yourself. And so when we look at, um, what brings somebody to coaching in the first place, invariably what they're seeking is better outcomes, right?

They want a better outcome in their business, a better outcome for their relationship, a better outcome in their health, a better outcome in their relationship with themselves, whatever, right? Outcomes are driven by behavior. Right. So the behavior that we engage in produces those outcomes. Behavior is driven by decisions.

So what do like, to your point before, what do we decide to do? Decisions are driven by thinking as in what is the state of our sort of psychological architecture at any given point in time. And thinking is driven by our worldview. And the challenge for human beings is that our worldview by its very nature.

To, and so

industry. Human beings and coaches misdiagnose problems as being something that exists inside the, uh, yeah, sorry, as being something that exists in the external world, rather than being something that is happening within me. And so like coaching, coaching 1 0 1, in my view is that whatever somebody brings to coaching is never the problem.

So like I can remember one of my first clients ever, ever, like, uh, was a really high level executive, very, very effective human being who came to me to wanna work on, uh, time management. And I said, sure. And I said, tell me, I said, show me your calendar and let's, let's start pulling it apart. And, uh. And he went on to explain that he was working in something in the neighborhood of 16 to 17 hour days.

And I said, wow, it's like a miracle that you're even here for this session at all. And he said, yeah, no, no, no. I made a commitment to you and you know, blah, blah, blah. And I said, so what's going on? I said, is it like you've struggled to delegate? You can't say no. There's something about how you role is structured that is, uh, leading to these, you know.

And, and I kept like pressing him and saying like, like, tell me like what? Like it's all right. Like, you're, you're safe. And and he kept dancing around it and dancing around it. Dancing around it. And like 11, 12 minutes later, he sort of like looked down and he looked back up at me and he said, I really, really, really don't wanna divorce my wife, but I'm thinking I might have to.

And I said, right. And so what invariably came to the surface was the reason that he was working so much was because he knew that if he was home long enough, then certain conversations with Surface that he didn't wanna have. And so, like, it's, in my view, it's just that, and I said, okay, look, we can have conversations about time management if you'd like, but I don't think that's the conversation we need to be having.

And so, and so part of, part of the challenge with, um, part of the challenge with coaching is it's largely, it's largely a. Western consumerists, like I'll help you kick ass and achieve goals sort of, um, space. But the problem is like, like even for example, when people, I can't tell you how many clients have come to me and said, you know, max, you are gonna be great for me 'cause I just need someone to hold me accountable.

And I'll say, well, don't you think the conversation that we need to be having is how come you feel you need someone to hold you accountable in the first place? 'cause then you don't need me at all. And so the, I guess the point in some ways is like coaching, in my view, it's not upstream enough. It doesn't actually look at our epistemology, our sensemaking, our worldview, um, and by and large the other, the other huge like problem certainly as I see it, is that coaches.

Certainly, as I have observed it are largely ex corporates who have been burnt out in their own careers, who are now trying to build a lifestyle business for themselves. Rather than actually building something in the service of somebody else. And so they'll charge like majorly disproportionate fees for very little time and very low touch points, knowing that they only need four or five clients a quarter.

You know, because then I can sort of subsidize my own. Uh, income that I was making in corporate. And that's like, and so there are a lot of, again, that's not someone's fault, right? It's just like there's a lot of systemic issues that sort of show up. But those would be the two biggest ones for me. It's like, number one is that it doesn't even begin to deal with, and by the way, I would argue it doesn't even begin to deal with these things because coaches themselves aren't even aware of that.

Like around how upstream problems can. And then the second is that the coaches are often trying to build a business for themselves rather than trying to build it around what their clients need. Um, so that's sort of my first draft approximation of it. Certainly. Um, one of the things that I saw when I was doing a little research about you online was you talked about how, um, your perception of yourself determines what's possible.

Yes, that's true. And it sounds like if people don't perceive themselves to be. Able to hold themselves accountable, then they are not able to then maybe reach their goal. Um, what do you mean when you say that? Tell me more about how someone's perception determines what's possible. Well, again, like it sits, it sits largely within that sort of thinking driven by worldview, right?

So like, one of the things that I've said to. Uh, you know, rather disagreeable CEOs that I've worked with in the past is I'll say, right, so you are, you're a, you're a CEO. You can probably see really easily on your team that people are their own worst problem. And they'll go, oh yeah, definitely. I can definitely see that.

And I say, right, you can see that they get in their own way in some way, or, you know, something to.

Human history and you see all of the crazy, you know what, that we've done to each other throughout, you know, centuries, you, and we can see that people really believe that they were doing good, but were actually causing a lot of harm. You know, we can see that they are, have been self-deceived in some way, right?

And he'll go, oh yeah, definitely, definitely. And I'll say, right. And then when we, let's bring this closer time. When you look at your own family, you look at your parents, you look at your kids, you look at your spouse, your husband, wife, et cetera, like, can you see that they get in their own way in some way, and they'll go, oh yeah, definitely, definitely.

I'll say, right, but not you. I'll say, how'd you get so lucky that you were the only person who is transparent to themselves? And so, and so, this is, this is the problem for most certainly, you know, if you guys are doing a lot of work with, you know, business owners and execs, et cetera, is like business owners misdiagnose problems as being something in the external world.

Like, no, no, no, max, you don't understand my problem. Is that I don't have enough leads, and I'll say, no, no, no. That's so not the problem. Like your problem, you know, like, like the choke hold. The choke hold of the choke hold of any business, right? Is your personal psychology. Because if you are the key decision maker, all of those decisions have to get funneled through your personal development.

And so we can always like. You can see it in terms of how businesses are run, that they're run in the fashion of the personal development of the core decision maker, right? And so one's perception of themselves, right? Invariably flows downstream to their team. It flows downstream to their outcomes. It flows downstream to their revenue.

Um. Um, it flows downstream into their marriage. It it, like, we are the choke of our own lives, right? And so if my worldview fundamentally doesn't change, right? And this is another reason why, certainly as I. Coaching misses the mark is because the second that I go away, you will revert back to what it, however it was that you were before we were working together.

Because how you think fundamentally hasn't changed what you, the actions that, again, like downstream, like your behavior might have changed temporarily. Like even some of the decisions I might argue could change, but you're thinking in your worldview that doesn't change that, you know, again, does one unexplored, how does, how does one then change their thinking and change their worldview?

So great question. So the biggest, the biggest problem, the biggest problem for human beings, uh, from an epistemic perspective, so in terms of how we make sense of reality is self-deception. So it is not that the world out there is going to, is going to hurt me or deceive me in some way. It's that I'm going to deceive myself and not even realize it.

Right. And so, and so, for example, like I, I'm working with a particular client at the moment who has a lot of challenges, a lot of, again, business owner, very quote unquote successful guy, you know, et cetera. Um, has a lot of challenges around, uh, trusting people. Like he's highly suspicious of people, very, very mindful about who he lets into his circle and, you know, all that sort of stuff.

One of the things that I said to him is, I said, the problem for you in your life is not gonna be right. That you are gonna let the wrong person in. The problem in your life is gonna be that you never let the right people in. Mm-hmm. That's gonna be the problem. You know? It's, and so, and so, like, one of the things, um, what's another example?

If you, if I'm working with somebody who, for. Doesn't wanna move into the social media space. Let's say, for example, they've got a block around, like, I don't wanna put myself on Instagram. I don't wanna, you know, do any of these things, see them alive, they're too cringey. Right, right, right. Mm-hmm. Too cr, too cringey, you know, it doesn't feel real man and all that sort of stuff.

Yeah. Right. Like Right. And again, like the biggest problem for them is not gonna be that they're gonna go out there and get sucked into the algorithm. That's not gonna. The problem is gonna be that they never do that and then their business never like, moves through a certain sort of threshold. So again, like the thing that we should be more afraid, like, 'cause in very, I've also had this conversation when it comes to, um, uh, what's an example?

Like people who are in really successful, uh, like high level roles, but are also wanting to start their own business, right? Might that.

That question, the, the conversation around like, yeah, but I need to be able to financially provide for my family. Um, you know, if I take this jump, this could, you know, it could be a major like financial risk, you know, et cetera, et cetera. And, and so one of the questions that I'll sort of lay out is, um, I'll say, okay, let's play up two scenarios here.

And because you are right to be nervous about these things, and I said, let's play out scenario A. Right? So scenario A is you do make this jump and all of your worst fears come true. You, you make a bad, you make poor financial decisions. Um, you start, it starts to cause problems within your own home. Maybe, uh, you know, your kids need to stop playing sport, like for a.

Terms after school. Like, let's, let's really play that out. You and your partner start arguing about money, like, like, oh, this wasn't the right decision. Like let's really play that out. So that could happen, right? You'll work through those things and then on the other side of that, you'll be okay. You'll have your business.

So that's scenario A, right? That could happen, right? Scenario B is that your kids grow, uh, grow up into their teens, early twenties, and they come to mom and they say to bum. Um, you know, mom, I'm, I'm in this decision about what I want to do with my life, and you say to them, well, you should really back yourself and follow your purpose and all that sort of stuff.

And they turn back to you and say, well, you did it, so why should I? And so it's, and so it's like, like that could happen too. And so the question is like, what scares you more? And invariably like indecision and staying as we are, you know, often it's, you know, because of homeostasis within our brain, we often don't weigh up the cost benefit analysis of staying where we are.

You know? 'cause there's huge costs in staying where we are. You.

Lot of podcasts and people will sort of say, oh, if there was one thing you could leave the audience with, what would it be? And I always come back to way.

That is a really, really good place to start. You know, it is that there's four, there's four like hurdles to learning anything. So number one is that we need to see that there's something to learn. Number two is that we need to be willing to learn it. Number three is that we need to be capable of learning it.

And then number four is we need to acknowledge a source of learning, as in like, where can I learn this right? And give the appropriate authority to learn. And so a really, really good place to start, certainly as its barrier is start there. The you staying as you are, if you are fundamentally unhappy with where things are at.

You know, it doesn't, it won't, it will not quote unquote sort itself out. You know, like it happens through a decision. I think, you know, you were sort of sharing that before. I think the, what is it, the etymology of the word decision. It comes from like desia dairy, which means to cut off. It's like, I'm not gonna be doing that anymore.

Quick side note, max. I'm a word witch and I'm obsessed with words and the correct definitions and using them properly. So I just, I appreciate from a nerd, one nerd to another, uh, that you are properly citing the proper use of the word. So anyway, but yes, we learn by doing right. We absolutely learn by moving and not staying stuck.

One of the things we see over and over again with our clients, and we hear from the clever crew all the time is, okay, so I have decided that I'm going to do this new thing. This new thing is gonna be done in front of people because that's the only way it can be done. Mm-hmm. Right. But I don't know how to deal with what people are going to say about me doing this new scary thing because they're gonna say, it's not me.

I'm trying to be someone I'm not. Like, who do I think I am? All these things are coming up from outside sources. How do you. How do you prepare someone for that client? Yeah. Yeah. Um, well, I, I, I think what, what's the expression? People don't want the best version of you. They want the version of you that best serves them.

And I think that, that there's something, uh, there's something very true about that. And again, I would come back to that might happen like again, like if. Um, sort of the nature of coaching. I, I think certainly as I see it, like, I think it's important to play that out. It's like that could happen, you know?

Mm-hmm. But you also have the alternative that you live a life of never stepping into the space that you want to at, at the mercy of people's opinions of you that best serve them. And, you know, so like that's a lot scarier, you know, and all of the systemic effects around how bitter you would become, what a bad example you would be for your kids.

Um, you know, how it would impact you, even like your eating decisions around how you choose to comfort yourself with the food that you eat. Like there's all of these things that like play, um, that certainly in my view, well, doesn't matter what I think, but for what it's worth, certainly in my view, are far.

Potential disapproval over here. But you know, part of, part of the challenge for the human animal is that we are like communal animals. So, you know, anywhere from tens to sort of, hundreds of thousands of years we lived in tribes. And so like significant disapproval from the tribe, you know, is like very, very, is not miles away from guaranteed death because if you get out, like you're, you're in serious trouble of the challenge.

With us around the whole, like, I just wish I didn't care what other people think about me. Sort of that whole problem, um, is that we have now built like globalized communities, right? But we still have in some ways, like now like dated biological wiring. And so when, when you are, if, if you are potentially worried about disapproval, all it sort of says to me is like you're just hanging out in the wrong tribe.

Like there are tribes of people who like will support. Whatever this is. Um, you know, and, uh, and they're out there, you know, it's your job to sort of curate, curate that tribe. I think it's a, I actually think it's Quentin Tarantino who says, if you imagine your network is like a, links in a chain is like, you wanna always try and make sure that you are the weakest link in that chain.

If you are that, if you are the weakest link in your chain, you're hanging out with the right people. So Good. So true. Absolutely. So true. Yeah. We, we hear that often where it's, we and Candace and I have played it out where, okay. And then they say that about you and then what happens? Well, maybe it's awkward when I see them next time and when we get drinks, I'm like, should you be getting drinks with somebody who says that about you?

And then it's like, well, I've known them for 10 years. Then who are you when you let go of a friend? You've know it just root cause. Right. And what it means about them and their identity and, and worldview as you call it. There's always a root cause. Agreed. How does a person begin to recognize their own worldview?

Because one of the things you said earlier was that you sometimes are unaware of your worldview. How do you begin to actually see it? So, yeah, so one of the great ways one can recognize it is like in the outcomes one gets because outcomes are downstream. Right. So when you look at the outcome, like the, the question invariably took me years, took me years to be even, to be able to articulate this, but it, I actually, certainly as I see it in terms of my role, is I actually don't help people achieve goals.

And I'll, I'll explain, I'll explain what I mean by that. So the thing about the nature of the human condition is that we fundamentally live in a sacrificial relationship with. Right. So as in, I will give up something today so I can have something better tomorrow. And so the question invariably, always surfaces within me is whenever somebody says, I want these outcomes, I haven't been able to generate them, can you help me?

Is like, okay, how is it that you need to change so that these outcomes are inevitable? Right? So being a strategic issue, right? Decisions and strategy and all behavior, all that stuff is downstream, right? So the thing that shows up for me is like, okay, how is it that you need to grow? How is it that you need to change?

How is it that you need to develop into a person where these outcomes would be completely inevitable? Right? And so when, and so one of the questions that, um, often sort of inviting clients into is like, what is it about me that is in some ways contributing to this being there? So one of the things, for example, I was in, um, I was in, uh, Mexico earlier this year, um, and I was running a, a workshop around like couples communication, right?

Oh boy. Um, around how, around right around how we can have more effective conversations within our marriages, right? And I said, and I was speaking about this idea of, um. Of living in a sacrificial relationship with the future. And I said, right, raise your hand here. Who's here because they'd like to have a better marriage, whatever that means to everyone, whatever their hand.

And I said, right, what if I was to tell you that you can have a better marriage, but you have to give up the idea of being right. And I said, could you do that? I said, could you do that? Right? Because if you can, you can have a better marriage. And if you can't, then that's probably why you're here in the first place.

So like, so this is the game that we're sort of in, right? Is like, uh, the game that we're sort of in is always around like, what do I need to give up in order to sort of have, um, my goals? And so it's sort of in my view, coaching tends to fall under like three categories. So in first you have what's called, um.

Transactional coaching, which is sort of like the idea that, um, you've got a goal. Let's break that into smaller goals. I'll hold you accountable.

Then the next level deeper is you have like skills-based coaching, which is like, okay, what are like the skills that need to get developed within maybe it's negotiation or pitching or um, leadership management or whatever, right? So there's like a skill gap there that needs to get potentially filled. A lot of executive coaching is in that space.

And then finally, uh, the deepest level is transformational coaching, which is about like, rather than what do you need to do and what skills do you need to learn? Like, who is it that you need to become? And so a really good place for us to start looking at that is to start sitting in the question when you're looking at the outcomes that you're getting in your world, is to ask yourself the question, okay, like, what is it about me that is in some ways contributing to this being there?

Because if you can start to catch those things, you can start to catch onto your own worldview. It's very difficult, right? Because a worldview violent, like again, that, that piece before around like, uh, that disagreeable CEO that I was working with through, you know, and I said, right, but not you, like he's got a point.

Like in some ways, because like notice when I look out at the world, I can see that people are their own worst problems. From my first person position, it doesn't look like I'm my worst problem. It looks like the world is my problem from my first person position. And so then when I look out at the world and I say, right, all of these people get in their own way.

In some way, what are the chances that I do the same? That in some ways gives me a place to start to be curious about those things. Like it's deep, it's good. The three levels, I mean, Candace and I have seen it, you know, and I think. It's just so good and clever crew. I hope you're gonna be listening this episode from repeat.

Truly. Um, getting back to our conversation, you've said that you don't give advice, you don't do accountability, and you've talked a little bit about the different types of coaching. So what does transformation look like when it's not specifically around goals or when it's not around strategy? What can your clients expect when they work with you?

Good question. So. Honestly, you're really helping me in KA right now because this is what we're trying to explain to our clients over and over again. So truly because we're in between. Thank you for this, um, coaching session. We're in between the skills and the transformational. We've never loved, we've never done transactional transac.

Maybe we did a little bit early on, but we're, we're teeter between the skills and the transformational, you know, but, but the transformational for me is harder to sell because they're like, wait, it is, are you gonna help me to get the leads? I'm like, yes, but not in the way you think. Funny, I'm, I'm gonna help you become a whole new person.

I'm gonna be helping you future you in one year of last, last tenure years. Yeah. Think. But yeah, so coach us here. I think, I think well, well, I, I definitely think that like, yeah, you will get those outcomes and, uh, I think that that's important. Like, will I, will I get more leads? Yeah, you will. Yeah, you will.

But the, the problem, the challenges I see it is the whole say like with accountability, right? I need someone, I. Is what it does is it sets up a dependency on the coaching engagement because the second that I get taken away, or some or external structures of accountability get taken away. It's, so, it's sort of like the idea like, oh, the only reason I go to the gym is 'cause I don't wanna let my PT down.

You know? Um, and it's like the healthiest people certainly that I. Come into contact with, don't have to whip themselves to be healthy. They just are healthy. You know, like the default is to be healthy. And so, um, in terms of what to expect, you can expect that we're gonna get the outcomes right. But again, like if you and I are gonna work together, you have to acknowledge, right?

Uh, so like one of the things that I always say whenever I'm in like a networking event or, you know, people are so curious, is they go. There's two insights that you need to have in order to work with me, right? Insight number one, do you have the capacity? Well, it's really three, but I'll walk you through insight number one, do you have the capacity to recognize that there is untapped potential within your business and most business owners who go, yeah, yeah, I can.

I can see that we can do stuff better and you know, like, I wanna grow the revenue or whatever. I'd say, okay, great insight number two, do you have capacity? Uh, do you have the capacity to recognize that you have untapped potential in yourself? Or, or, and that's harder to see, right? Goes into the worldview like most business owners, uh, not most, but some might go, well, I don't know.

I guess so. Like, I guess so. Um, and I'd say right. Okay, cool. Insight number three. Can you see that these things are connected? Yes or no? You see that the untapped potential in yourself is in some ways leading to a chokehold in your business. Yes or no? You see that? And if you can answer yes to those three questions, we can do some work together, but if you can't, then I'm not the right person.

And so I, yeah, not yet. So, so you can like self-select out based on their own That's That's right. Yeah. Their own answers. That's right. Like, that's right. And that's what I mean. It's like, yeah, that's what I mean around the, the word, right? Like the word coach can say, I'll carry you, I'll hold you while you work out what you need to do for yourself.

Yeah. I don't, I like, if I'm speak, if I'm giving advice, I'm now no longer a coach. I'm a consultant. Yeah. And I'm not. Yeah. And so I will hold you while you negotiate with yourself. Yeah. And hopefully, if I can do my job well, is you can negotiate with yourself more effectively. I love our podcast so much because I feel like I have a new friend.

I feel like I learned so much. I feel like, you know, we're definitely gonna talk again after this, and it's the first time we're ever meeting for the clever crew to know. Um. And that's meaningful. Conversation is really everything. And if y'all are not making time and space in your life to have meaningful conversations with human beings, there's something wrong there.

You gotta take time to do this because it's just so, it's enhanced my life so much to be able to talk to such cool people on our podcast. I know Kat would say the same. And clever crew Max reached out to us. He took the initiative and we said yes. And I'm so grateful that we did. So, like it's just Say yes, take a chance.

Even if you're an introvert, max Candace and I are both strong introverts, which is why we have the podcast. 'cause this is better than, you know, a networking event or a conference of thousands of people. Uh, yeah, we get to, do we get to skip the small talk? Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yes. Straight into it. Yeah. That's cool.

So Max, before we get to our not nice advice segment, although I feel like this entire episode has been not nice advice but said with heart, which I appreciate. Is there, um, anything you wanna share in specifics about the book that you have coming out? Um, I, yeah. Saw a line about the book that said you might be living a life that's not your own or written by somebody else.

Like that was on your landing page for it. And that I know eyebrows go up that hit me so. What are the things you want the audience to know just about that that's in the works and coming soon? Yeah, yeah, sure. So the, yeah, the book, the book is in some ways, a, it's an exploration around the crisis of meaning that we have in Western culture.

So. By and large, comparatively to the rest of the world. We don't have a survival problem. We have a meaning problem in that we find it difficult to create deep meaning in our lives. And so the book speaks, like the first couple of chapters of the book, it lays out one of the traps that we're in, in western culture is what are called mimetic desires.

So there there goals that you have inherited but are not actually yours. And so part of, um, so one of the. Layout early on in the book is when we look at, um, how trade was done, like historically, it was largely done on the basis of utility. So Kat, you have some eggs. I have some sheep skin. Why don't we swap?

Because I need the eggs and you need the sheep. Post industrial revolution. Trade is now by and large done on the basis of identity. So we don't buy things. No. We no longer buy things for utility. We now buy things because of what it means about us. And so one of the, one of the examples that I sort of lay out is, um, say like with a, a Gucci scuff, right?

Like a luxury item like that is you, you purchase that item, but you don't purchase the item. You purchase what owning that item says about you for having it. So when you purchase that scarf, you're buying a story, right, of elegance, of sophistication, of success. And that's the thing that you buy. But the thing is, is that that scarf that I own, it says those things about me, but it only says those things about me until next year's scarf is released.

Now, that same scarf that I own now no longer says elegant sophistication and success. It now says that I'm falling behind, and yet it's the same scarf that I've bought. And so one of the challenges that we're in is we're in this game of, of, of making our buying decisions based on identity. But the problem is when we do that, we're buying a story.

And that story is not fixed to the item. It leaps from thing to thing. And so because it leaps from thing to thing, we're constantly in pursuit of this story, right? That we can never, we can never really reach because there's always another thing that is sort of on its way. And so part of, and so part of the challenge like, is that I hope to be able to show the reader, like through the process.

And so, by the way, like I, I, I speak in very sort of fancy language talking about, you know, the crisis. It's written in a super conversational, like no nonsense, um, way, just for whatever that's worth. But, um, and so, and so part of the like early stage of the book is a layout, like how we got here. So you think that you are pursuing these goals that are not, that are really yours.

And the first sort of part of the book is actually to have the reader like track it in their experience. And there's like exercises and stuff that I have them go through, um, where they can see it and they go like, oh wow. Like, okay, this is really like, not, not my own. And so then we get into the question of like, you know what the, you know what the FDU actually want?

Right? Which is like, okay, so you though like the emphasis is on the word you. It's like what do you really want? And so then we get into the question about like, okay, well how do I design a life that is actually mine? Yeah. Rather than it being something that I've inherited. And so. The book sort of lays out the case that the way that we can orient ourselves in a secular and secular just means like scientific, cold, um, rational, you know, all those things.

Tangible. Yeah. Um, the way that, right. All that stuff, the way that we can lay out, the way that we can orient ourselves in a secular world is by finding a purpose that extends just beyond me and my needs. So what I mean by that is like, is, um, again, when we look throughout like. The history of human beings, and we've come from anywhere, from tens to hundreds of thousands years of living in tribes, right?

Is um, your success, right? Was predicated upon the contribution that you made to that tribe? Did you go and get the berries? Did you go and catch the fish? Did you go and hunt the animal? And if you did and you were successful, you could bring it back and you'll celebrate it within that tribe, right? Now our tribe is no longer like my little corner of the forest.

Like now your tribe is the world, right? 'cause we live in like a globalized tribe in some sense. And so part of the challenge that we have is we, we have like an intrinsic biological wiring, which is geared around certain things. Contribution, community, um, connection. Yeah. But we've built cultures or lives that Harold the individual, right?

It's all about me and. And so part of what the book sort of lays out is it lays out how to find your purpose beyond yourself or your unique contribution to the world. And the deep irony is like one of the things I lay out is the deep irony is that when you find that and live into that, all of those things that I just spoke about by way of like success status stuff, you know, none of that, all of that will just happen for you, but just as a natural byproduct of living into that.

Uh, of living into that purpose. The deep irony is that you'll be more successful and probably make more money than you did before, but it won't mean the same things to you anymore. Now it will be like, what is it? Contribution is the cause and success is the symptom of that. And, you know, and I just think that that's, that's spot on.

And part of the, part of the challenge, certainly as I've seen it when I've been working with clients who are in that question, is they, they, they think about like themselves first. So they go like, well, what do I. And that in some ways it sets us up for rather poor answers because we're now getting these answers from a place within our own psychosomatic responses that is out of alignment with our own intrinsic nature when we get our attention, like it's one of the most counterintuitive things in life.

It's like, you want a better life, stop thinking about you, you know? And, uh, and so certainly as I, certainly as I have seen it, by way of finding your purpose beyond you. Is all of those things will just happen by default, and the book sort of talks about how to do that.

One phrase that comes to mind that I say often is, I make the most amount of money when I'm not trying to make money. Like I make the most amount of money when I'm exactly solving problems, connecting with people. Collaborate. Yeah. It's counterintuitive, hugely in this modern world, but. We often talk about like coming from a place of service, and I think when we do and we serve with our own unique gifts in the way that makes the most sense to us, that's when we see the biggest success.

And in this case, I'm talking about financial success, right? Exactly. It just, it just happens by default. And we feel good about doing it. So it's like a, we're winning if we're doing that. Exactly. Exactly. And that, yeah, like one of the, like one of the later chapters, like every chapter in the book is like a question, and the one of the later chapters is called like, well, what's in it for me?

And um, and one of the, that's exactly what gets laid out is like when you are living into that purpose and you can feel it, people just, they're gonna wanna work with you. They just will just Yeah. It's magnetic. The energy. That shit is infectious. Exactly. It's, yeah. I always tell people that I just, I'm a teacher at heart and I live for the light bulb moments, like mm-hmm.

It doesn't even. Money. It's, I know it's gonna come, but what really brings me joy and lights me up is like seeing the light bulbs in my clients. I'm like, Ugh, I gotta do that again. That was great. And like, give me more of that. Um, okay. We could talk to you forever, but we, we do have a 45 minute, typically we try to keep our clever crew, um, in and out so they can, you know, listen to us while they're working out and then be done.

Um, so the not nice advice segment, I'm gonna read you a question that one of our clever crew wrote in. Um, so it says, I'm passionate about my business and I have so much I wanna accomplish. I have lots of ideas, but I'm stuck in this loop of starting second guessing and then starting over. How do I figure out what's actually worth pursuing and how do I stay focused long enough to see something through?

This is from mentally booked and busy. Okay, I'll do everything on. Okay. So, okay, so number one. Number one is, uh, recognize. Number one is recognize that you are going to die one day and that day is not far away. So like you, you do not have got the chills. You do not have long. Yeah. Yeah. You do not. Yeah. The story ends the same.

Right? So that's the same. Yeah. The record. Exactly. So number one is like there is no safe path because the safe path and the unsafe path end up in the same place. Right. And you will be forgotten. And that's okay. Right. And so the first thing Yeah. Uh, is to actually start, start to, this is a real not nice.

Seriously. Yeah. Well, well, like the, we ask for it. Hang. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But, but the thing is, is like, that's actually, that's actually very freeing because there's nothing real at stake. You know, there's nothing real on the line. Because, because the game, the game ends the same way for everybody. Mm-hmm.

So the first, the first thing that I'd say is like. Uh, start to grasp that you don't have an infinite amount of time. Number two, uh, number two is, uh, there's a, there's a sort of like formula that I tend to have people look at when it comes to like, finding the thing, whatever the thing is, right? Number one is, let's start with your gifts.

So, but I have a different appreciation of what that word means. I actually argue that your gifts are not for you. They're, they come through you, but they're actually supposed to be for somebody else. And so if you think about all, and so all of the things that come easily to you, the problem with gifts is that we often dismiss them.

And so if you look at, and so that's the first approximation about you. Second approximation.

Okay, I have these gifts. Who in the world can I serve with these gifts? Right? And then you work out who you wanna serve. So who moves you the most to serve, right? And if we use business speak, that's like find your niche and all that sort of stuff, right? So it's like, so, and then the third is you need a place to start.

So don't wait for the perfect plan. And the thing also shows up for me that entrepreneurs fall into a lot is entrepreneurs, like the first dollar that you make doing the. But immediately immediate, immediately, you sort of need to forget that because after, after that, then you're really on the pursuit of, uh, mastery.

There's like four. Here's a great book for your reader to read. There's a great book called, UM, mastery. It's by George Leonard, and there's four different archetypes of people who pursue anything, right, or trying to pursue mastery in any space. And the first three all quit in the. And so the first is what's called the dabbler.

This might be the person who submitted the, um, who submitted the question, right? So, and the dabbler, and you can tell by the way you can tell, um, what archetype somebody is by how they handle what's called the plateau. So the plateau is when you're putting in a lot of effort, but you're not seeing any returns, right?

And so the dabbler, what happens is they start something new. They experience that first bit of progress, but when they hit that plateau, they then the next thing to do. And so what ends up happening is then they start something new. They experience that first bit of progress, and then they hit that plateau and they just go round and round.

The second is what's called the plotter. And the plotter is someone who hits that, uh, first bit of progress, hits that plateau, but never really applies themselves on the plateau and eventually just sort of gives up. The third is what's called the obsessive, and that that was me. Right. The obsessive is like someone who will do anything to shorten that plateau.

They'll do extra sessions after class. They'll, uh, they'll start, they get obsessed with it because they can't stand the emotional labor and they're not willing to accept that. The plateau is the plateau and you just have to go along with it. Uh, and they end up sort of self-destructing. And then the fourth is the master.

And the master is the archetype of person who actually understands this process and, uh, and act. You think of like a martial arts master who does 10,000 kicks, you know, the same kick 10,000 times every morning, you know, from 4:00 AM to 7:00 AM or whatever. Um, is like the master understands, uh, this process and actually enjoys the plateau, right?

And so that would be like, that's a really good resource for your potential reader, potential listener.  Oh, um, you gave us so much to think about today and we truly, truly appreciate your time today, max. We are dropping all of Max's information inside the show notes, so definitely click and reach out to Max.

Thanks for joining us on Not Nice Lever. Remember to follow, not nice, clever, wherever you listen to audio. And if you haven't already, drop that five star review, share your takeaways, tell us your story. We love to hear it. Signing off, you're not so nice. But also clever besties that mean business. See you soon.